Is there a manual for yatagans?

Zifir · 5th June 2006, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I once posted a thread here and nobody was interested.
Are you now?
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2072
I think this is a fantastic story !!!!
But, perhaps, I am overenthusiastic..... decide for yourself.

This is indeed a very interesting piece of information. In fact, Selim I was said to order forced migration of one thousand artisans from Tabriz to Istanbul after its conquest. The reference to the Tekelu tribe is very interesting. I am not sure if there is any connection but there is another name used for yatagans in turkish: 'Varsak'; which is also the name of the one of the Kizilbash tribes which constituted Shah Ismail's federation.

Emanuel · 10th June 2006, 02:56 AM

Took a while, but here are the scans I mentioned of Ottoman dignitaries from the 16th century wearing yataghan in their sash.

Emanuel

ariel · 11th June 2006, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manolo

Took a while, but here are the scans I mentioned of Ottoman dignitaries from the 16th century wearing yataghan in their sash.

Emanuel

Are you sure these are 16th century?
I am dubious: there were not many European travellers to Turkey at that time and the style of drawing is more like 18th-19th centuries. Where is it from?

Emanuel · 12th June 2006, 03:50 AM

I had the same thought, these drawings could very well be 19th century, and the book does not provide any reference or detail about it except the caption. I will look for books on Ottoman court dress and costumes and see if the image can be corroborated.

Zifir · 12th June 2006, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manolo

Took a while, but here are the scans I mentioned of Ottoman dignitaries from the 16th century wearing yataghan in their sash.

Emanuel

Manolo,
These look like janissaries. As Ariel and you suggested there might be also some confusion about dating. (These much look like the 18th and the early 19th century dresses to me)

For the first one on the left I am not sure. But the second one on the left is a serdengecti ( janissary volunteer), the third one is a karakollukcu (a janissary orderly) and the last one is a harbeci (janissary guardsman).

Emanuel · 13th June 2006, 12:41 AM

Hello Zifir,
Thanks for identifying the ranks and dress! I have just started reading about janissaries and they're quite fascinating. I've seen and handled two yataghan this week and now I really want one, many in fact.

Just to clarify one thing: the famous janissary scimitars idealised by Europeans were in fact kilic right?

If these drawings show 18th-19th century dress, are there any records that show earlier costumes?
Emanuel

Zifir · 13th June 2006, 06:29 AM

Kılıç is the exact equivalent of the word 'sword' in Turkish. In that sense, it is a generic word. You can call both a 19th century saber and a 15th century scimitar as kılıçs and gramatically there won't be any mistake in that

Same is true for the word shamsir. In the ottoman context, the only difference is probably while common people called a sword as kılıç, the elite prefered the arabic word shamsir. Within this general category of shamsir/kılıç there are many variations.

There are many experts in ottoman arms here, which i am not, and I think they can better explain the differences in detail.

For the earlier examples of the dress, there are many miniatures and drawings. To give you one example, this is a sketch by Gentile Bellini or by one of his associates. The man in the sketch was probably a member of janissary cavalry (sipahi) of the 15th century.

Emanuel · 13th June 2006, 03:29 PM

Thanks for the picture, I also stumbled upon it in my searches. I found a number of books on Ottoman dress -mostly in Turkish- but none of them with images

By kılıç I was referring to the sabre variant with the yelman widening at the tip. I had read a mention that yeniceri used a double-edged sabre, so this is the only Islamic saber I could think of that corresponds to this description. The variant without yelman are single-edged no?

From these images and from what I've read so far, I understand that yeniceri wore minimal armour/padding, and yet they were formidable adversaries. To fight successfully with little protection implies considerable skill - their schools obviously provided quality training. I wonder if any state records about the acemi oglan yeniceri school could shine some light on the existence of manuals...

Emanuel

ariel · 13th June 2006, 10:15 PM

Check this site:

http://www.atlant-tpg.ru/aka.html

This is a Russian Publishing house "Atlant". They have a book called Janissari: with very detailed summaries in English, ~ 1/3 of total total book.
The same book appears often on e-bay.
Great pictures, detailed info about ranks, structure, weapons, you name it.

10th June 2006, 02:56 AM	#2
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Scans Took a while, but here are the scans I mentioned of Ottoman dignitaries from the 16th century wearing yataghan in their sash. Emanuel Attached Images

13th June 2006, 06:29 AM	#7
Zifir Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Istanbul Posts: 228	Kılıç is the exact equivalent of the word 'sword' in Turkish. In that sense, it is a generic word. You can call both a 19th century saber and a 15th century scimitar as kılıçs and gramatically there won't be any mistake in that Same is true for the word shamsir. In the ottoman context, the only difference is probably while common people called a sword as kılıç, the elite prefered the arabic word shamsir. Within this general category of shamsir/kılıç there are many variations. There are many experts in ottoman arms here, which i am not, and I think they can better explain the differences in detail. For the earlier examples of the dress, there are many miniatures and drawings. To give you one example, this is a sketch by Gentile Bellini or by one of his associates. The man in the sketch was probably a member of janissary cavalry (sipahi) of the 15th century. Attached Images

12th June 2006, 03:50 AM	#4
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	I had the same thought, these drawings could very well be 19th century, and the book does not provide any reference or detail about it except the caption. I will look for books on Ottoman court dress and costumes and see if the image can be corroborated.

13th June 2006, 12:41 AM	#6
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello Zifir, Thanks for identifying the ranks and dress! I have just started reading about janissaries and they're quite fascinating. I've seen and handled two yataghan this week and now I really want one, many in fact. Just to clarify one thing: the famous janissary scimitars idealised by Europeans were in fact kilic right? If these drawings show 18th-19th century dress, are there any records that show earlier costumes? Emanuel

13th June 2006, 03:29 PM	#8
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Thanks for the picture, I also stumbled upon it in my searches. I found a number of books on Ottoman dress -mostly in Turkish- but none of them with images By kılıç I was referring to the sabre variant with the yelman widening at the tip. I had read a mention that yeniceri used a double-edged sabre, so this is the only Islamic saber I could think of that corresponds to this description. The variant without yelman are single-edged no? From these images and from what I've read so far, I understand that yeniceri wore minimal armour/padding, and yet they were formidable adversaries. To fight successfully with little protection implies considerable skill - their schools obviously provided quality training. I wonder if any state records about the acemi oglan yeniceri school could shine some light on the existence of manuals... Emanuel

13th June 2006, 10:15 PM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Check this site: http://www.atlant-tpg.ru/aka.html This is a Russian Publishing house "Atlant". They have a book called Janissari: with very detailed summaries in English, ~ 1/3 of total total book. The same book appears often on e-bay. Great pictures, detailed info about ranks, structure, weapons, you name it.