Awesome Jacobite period basket hilt broadsword

[M ELEY]

Beautifully put, Jim and, of course, you are right. I just got caught up in the wasted destruction of these amazing pieces. In reality, this type of thing goes on even when it isn't war-related. Back in the Art Deco period of the '20's-30's, there was a complete disrespect for anything 'old'. Fine jewelry from a century before was cut up, melted down, reworked, etc. I've seen Bavarian swords from the Crimean war turned into candle sticks, Indo-Persian helmets and old Japanese incense burners turned into modern lamps during this period. What a shame...

You brought up an interesting point concerning basket hilts that made it over the pond to America back in the day. I just read up on frontier British forts during the French and Indian War. many of the officers at these garrisons had older baskets from pre-1750. Likewise, Neumann, in his monumental work on swords of the Revolution rightly shows many basket hilts that 'made it over here' for the conflict. Another route of the Scots, like a terrible shadow of Culloden, happened right here in North Carolina during the war at the Battle of Moore's Creek.

https://portcitydaily.com/local-news...-moores-creek/

Having read up on that battle, I believe terrain was the most significant factor versus the terribly inaccurate firearms, however. In any case, I bring this up because my basket was purchased in Vancouver, Canada, a British province once the war ended and the English traveled north. I know it's a stretch, but you never know where some of these items might have traveled to or been!

[Interested Party]

Originally Posted by M ELEY;266155many basket hilts that 'made it over here' for the conflict. Another route of the Scots, like a terrible shadow of Culloden, happened right here in North Carolina during the war at the Battle of Moore's Creek.

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https://portcitydaily.com/local-news/2018/02/11/swords-to-a-gunfight-relive-a-tragic-military-mismatch-at-moores-creek/[/url]

Having read up on that battle, I believe terrain was the most significant factor versus the terribly inaccurate firearms, however. In any case, I bring this up because my basket was purchased in Vancouver, Canada, a British province once the war ended and the English traveled north. I know it's a stretch, but you never know where some of these items might have traveled to or been!

I would imagine the Scotts of western NC were less loyal as the Tories were rounded up and hung. Those that escaped were hunted down. A few survived after spending the war in hiding. Mr. Howard of Howard's Knob would be an example of one who lived. 40 years ago the execution of the Tories was a still a de facto school holiday in parts of western NC as they would bus kids out to visit the oak the rebels executed the loyalist on. I wonder if NC history is still taught from the same point of view?

[M ELEY]

Wow! That is shocking and very interesting information! I'm a transplant to NC and have lived here for about 30 years. Likewise, I live mid-state, but I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn of such 'field trips' up in the mountians. The Tories were indeed hated and were responsible (along with some colonists supporting the new regime, of course) for some graphic war crimes. Many say the first real Civil War was fought here in the southern colonies back during the Revolution. I'll have to do some research on that info you gave. Thanks!

[Jim McDougall]

That the basket hilt had a long presence in the American colonies has no doubt. Scots and Irish, hence Scotch-Irish, had been coming to America, and in the Carolinas for some time, and were in place in early 18th c.

On the death of the pirate Blackbeard, from "Under the Black Flag", David Cordingly, 1996, p.198):

"....one of Maynard's men being a Highlander, engaged Teach with his broadsword, who gave Teach a cut on the neck, Teach saying 'well done lad'; the Highlander replied , 'if not be well done, then I'll do it better', with that he gave him a second stroke, which cut off his head laying it flat on his shoulder".

-from the "Boston News Letter", Feb.23 to Mar.2, 1719.

The event was at Ocracoke, N.C. November 22, 1718.

The Highlander was probably of a local militia with men recruited by Lt. Maynard to man his sloops (two) to pursue Blackbeard in the inlets in this area. Maynard's sword was broken, and the Highlander struck Blackbeard from behind.

Given that the basket hilt Mark has posted here is from the 1680-1700 period, we may assume the Highlander had a sword quite similar.

[Battara]

Jim I had no idea that 19c blades were re-hilted with the older hilts!

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Battara

Jim I had no idea that 19c blades were re-hilted with the older hilts!

What I meant was that in the 19th century with all the fervor over all things Scottish many old hilts were remounted with old blades, mostly German of course, which were still circulating around. I did not mean 19th century blades, however there were still broadsword blades available from Solingen. I have seen Scottish hilts sporting kaskara blades of the form often sent to Sudan.

It is often surprising to see how often older hilts were joined with newer blades, as seen in Wallace Collection (Mann, 1962).

[M ELEY]

Originally Posted by Battara

Jim I had no idea that 19c blades were re-hilted with the older hilts!

Hello Battara! I know this practice was done on occasion, but whether out of respect or just to re-market an old basket, I can't say! I used to own such a piece. The basket was the m1828 and solidly dated to the Crimean period. She had a good patina and subtle nuances of a mid-19th c. basket. She had been refitted with a Wilkinson dress blade with King George V stamp ca. 1910 along with a nice scabbard. I sold it only because it was a true dress piece and not a fighter.

[Interested Party]

Jim fascinating. My source material reading list continues to grow and diversify at a rate I can't keep up with.

M Eley this is an amazing piece that has sparked a great discussion.

I have never seen one of these swords, a basket, or even one of the famous crosscut saws remade into a short sword that was a family heirloom from this period. What is more I never even heard the rumor of their existence as such during my childhood in western NC. I believe I would have seen one proudly displayed by someone in my grandfather's gun shop if they were at all common. Every type of antiquarian oddity came through there at one time or another. I can only guess that they were either literally beat into plow shards eventually or confiscated by the northern or southern troops 100 years later. The idea of a sword was so foreign that my mother danced over crossed sticks while her grandmother beat time without anyone realizing it was a supposed to be a sword dance. I guess after 250 years it is surprising that even that much old world culture remained.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Interested Party

Jim fascinating. My source material reading list continues to grow and diversify at a rate I can't keep up with.

M Eley this is an amazing piece that has sparked a great discussion.

I have never seen one of these swords, a basket, or even one of the famous crosscut saws remade into a short sword that was a family heirloom from this period. What is more I never even heard the rumor of their existence as such during my childhood in western NC. I believe I would have seen one proudly displayed by someone in my grandfather's gun shop if they were at all common. Every type of antiquarian oddity came through there at one time or another. I can only guess that they were either literally beat into plow shards eventually or confiscated by the northern or southern troops 100 years later. The idea of a sword was so foreign that my mother danced over crossed sticks while her grandmother beat time without anyone realizing it was a supposed to be a sword dance. I guess after 250 years it is surprising that even that much old world culture remained.

The presence of 'foreign' swords in the colonies, and in America through the Revolution, and Civil War is well established, as seen in the amazingly comprehensive "Swords and Blades of the American Revolution", George Neumann, 1972. The volumes of these swords had already existed in the colonies profusely after the more than a century of colonization and immigration.

I dont believe that Union forces would have had an interest in old swords, but the Confederacy was calling for old swords of any kind, and were importing swords mostly from England.

Old world traditions are still very much in place, and that is a most charming story of your mother dancing over the crossed sticks. I once had the great honor of seeing this sword dance performed by the 42nd Highlanders ("Black Watch") . It was just at the time of the bombing of the Marine Barracks in Lebanon in 1983, and it was the most stirring thing I have seen.

Another great book you might add
"How the Scots Invented the Modern World", Arthur Herman, 2001.

[M ELEY]

Originally Posted by Interested Party

Jim fascinating. My source material reading list continues to grow and diversify at a rate I can't keep up with.

M Eley this is an amazing piece that has sparked a great discussion.

I have never seen one of these swords, a basket, or even one of the famous crosscut saws remade into a short sword that was a family heirloom from this period. What is more I never even heard the rumor of their existence as such during my childhood in western NC. I believe I would have seen one proudly displayed by someone in my grandfather's gun shop if they were at all common. Every type of antiquarian oddity came through there at one time or another. I can only guess that they were either literally beat into plow shards eventually or confiscated by the northern or southern troops 100 years later. The idea of a sword was so foreign that my mother danced over crossed sticks while her grandmother beat time without anyone realizing it was a supposed to be a sword dance. I guess after 250 years it is surprising that even that much old world culture remained.

That is pretty cool that some of the old ways made it 'over the pond' to the New World. Just as so much of the 'mountain traditions' were from the Old Country, such things transitioned over here. Bluegrass music and instruments, customs, food, even sayings were brought with the travelers. One of my favorites is the classic 'Southern' saying "Y'all", usually drawn out to "Y'alllllll"! In the South, we say proudly "It's a Southern thing!" Um, no, it's not. It is a Scottish thing!!!!

In the Old World language, it was 'Ye All', with 'Ye' meaning 'All of you' (versus 'Thou', which was singular for an individual. Thus, if being a rude old Scot, you might say "Thou is an idiot!! "Ye kin are probably idiots, too!" differentiating singular person versus group of people.

In what part of western NC did you live? My folks moved to Hendersonville near Asheville. In the county courthouse there, they have a small museum. In their collection, they had an amazing full basket hilt broadsword ca. 1730 of fine quality. It was on loan from a local family who had lived in NC since the mid-18th c. The last time I went, it was no longer on display. Too bad.

[M ELEY]

[QUOTE=Jim McDougall;266171]That the basket hilt had a long presence in the American colonies has no doubt. Scots and Irish, hence Scotch-Irish, had been coming to America, and in the Carolinas for some time, and were in place in early 18th c.

On the death of the pirate Blackbeard, from "Under the Black Flag", David Cordingly, 1996, p.198):

"....one of Maynard's men being a Highlander, engaged Teach with his broadsword, who gave Teach a cut on the neck, Teach saying 'well done lad'; the Highlander replied , 'if not be well done, then I'll do it better', with that he gave him a second stroke, which cut off his head laying it flat on his shoulder".

-from the "Boston News Letter", Feb.23 to Mar.2, 1719.

The event was at Ocracoke, N.C. November 22, 1718.

Jim, anytime you bring up either Blackbeard, piracy or Scottish baskets, you command my attention! I was always fascinated by the story of the Highlander who killed the nefarious pirate. Most texts annoyingly just say Lt. Maynard killed him, which was not the case. The Scot who struck down the villain from Bristol is usually un-credited, as is the story of him striking the pirate twice. This is the kind of stuff that keeps me collecting. Knowing all of the history these pieces represent and all of the (potential) places they may have traveled to in their paths through history!

Thanks to all for commenting on the basket! Maybe I'll strap this soldier to my side, put on my kilt and attend the next Highland Games here in NC!

[fernando]

[QUOTE=M ELEY;266190]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... Maybe I'll strap this soldier to my side, put on my kilt and attend the next Highland Games here in NC!

Post us a picture later on Captain .

[M ELEY]

Thanks, 'Nando. I'll do so!