Awesome Jacobite period basket hilt broadsword

colin henshaw · 14th September 2021, 10:23 AM

Mark, I know very little about Europeans swords ... about the blade, is it a Solingen production ? any marks, running wolf etc ? Did they make sword blades in Scotland at all ?? The blade seems to have an early look to it...

M ELEY · 14th September 2021, 02:15 PM

Hello Colin. It is my understanding that the vast majority of blades coming into the British Isles at this time were of German manufacture. This blade apears to be a common pattern, of lenticular form () in cross section, plain, unmarked (some will cry "where are the king's head marks?! Where is the 'Andria Fererra' markings and Latin symbols?! Many blades were completely unmarked. See Neumann's Guide, also Culloden:The Swords and the Sorrows for other unmarked examples) Two classic characteristics of a German blade are the broad ricasso and rounded tip on this one (I used to own two Spanish 'bilbo' broadswords with imported German blades with same rounded tip).

Jim McDougall · 14th September 2021, 05:18 PM

There were not really any blade forgers in any degree in the British Isles until the mid to latter 17th century, these being the Hounslow makers who who primarily Germans brought in, later the Shotley Bridge makers. During the English civil wars shops in Oxford and one or two others began, but again with mostly German makers.

In the early 18th century the shops in Birmingham began, but even by the second half of the 18th century there were only three (possibly four) sword blade makers were were English. The Hounslow shops were long gone, and Shotley stubbornly hung on through the 18th c. but faltered away by early 19th.
By this time Birmingham was bustling and British blade making had taken hold.

As far as Scotland, there were never blade makers there, just 'sword slippers' who used foreign blades and made hilts, much as in most places where cutlers used blades from known blade forging centers.
Sword making was seldom a 'comprehensive' industry, but used components made by others and assembled them together.

The rounded tip on 'arming' sword blades was as Mark notes well known on German blades on these times, and designed primarily for more surface in slashing cuts, key in Scottish swordsmanship.

M ELEY · 14th September 2021, 10:30 PM

Thank you, Jim, for coming in on this one. I know you are the expert when it comes to the Scottish pieces. I had forgotten about the German smiths of Houndslow, but, as you said, they were long gone. I am unfamiliar with the Scottish fensing style with basket and hope to find information on it, especially pertaining to the slashing cut and tageting the opponent's hand inside the basket (thus, the need for the later wrist guard).

Jim McDougall · 15th September 2021, 05:39 AM

I'm surely no expert on these Capn, but thank you! I do clearly have a passion for them, and though I have tried to study them for many years, their history is complex and elusive.

In reading through resources trying to get 'up to speed' here, I wanted to address some of the comments thus far.

It is known that only some 190 swords were recovered from the field at Culloden, but over 1800 men were killed, of over 6000 troops. In the aftermath, there were paltry numbers of swords surrendered, 25 here, 50 there. Scholars insist the numbers of swords recorded were relatively few compared to muskets.
However, some insights into the battle are found in "How the Scots Invented the Modern World", A.Herman ,2001:
pp.152,53;
paraphrasing the author, ' the clans maddened by the shelling, could no longer be held back and charged like wildcats into the British lines...most came too fast to use the muskets they were carrying....in thier bloodlust they threw their firearms away'.

'..the Scots hacked at muskets with such maniacal fury that down the line men could hear the clang of swprd on barrel'.

"...clansmen blindly hacking and thrusting as choking smoke closed around them....dreadful to see swords circling in the air as they were raised from strokes'.

Clearly, while many writers presume from records that the numbers of muskets known to have been with the Jacobite forces, that these were the predominant arm......the Scots would not have simply carried a musket....without their faithful basket hilts.
As seen here, in the fury of battle, they deferred to their distinct weapon, the sword.......'and threw muskets away'.

So what then became of the probably considerable number of swords of the fallen. Many of these men were of closely related clans, and these swords were inherently sacred, so in my opinion, many of these were taken by thier relatives and among those who fled the field.

Then as noted by the author, (p.150),
"..warriors hid their swords and targes in the heath, hoping that they or their children would remember where they had buried them'.

In most cases, these were removed to more favorable hiding places.
The 'disarming act' of that year proscribed not only the weapons, but Highland dress, even bagpipes.....for generations, over 50 years.

Only in the British regiments were swords permitted, and these, as Mark has described, were often produced in the garrison towns, Glasgow, Edinburgh and Stirling, and the decoration in the basket hilts became rudimentary, many hilts becoming 'munition grade'.

With the wonderfully roughly done decoration in this example of Mark's, it seems to be of Glasgow form, but not of the munitions grade forms of post Culloden.....here noting that Glasgow and Stirling still produced worthy hilts for British cavalry officers in the Highland dragoon regiments.

The first Jacobite rebellions began in 1689, with uprisings in 1715 and 1719, and while Glasgow became a primary garrison town in these times, there were hammermen in the environs who would fashion thier own versions of these well known hilts. These men were of course outside the records of established hammermen.

In an earlier post, it was asked whether any Scots produced blades. In the writing of Charles Whitelaw (1934), the venerable sage of the study of Scottish arms, I found two cases which he thought were NOT imported blades.

These were (p.309, plate IV#4; plate V, #2,#3)
Both were basket hilts by W. Allen (Walter Allen of Glasgow, later Stirling).
He suggested these blades were by Allen, and not imported.
Both blades were with the favored ANDREA FERARA name, which was of course typically on the German imports, so it is curious how he arrived at this conclusion, but is noted here regarding the possibility of Scottish blade production.

toaster5sqn · 15th September 2021, 06:07 AM

M Eley, regarding your interest in knowing more about the Scottish fencing style the main 2 references would be:

Thomas Page's "The Use of the Broad Sword" published in 1746 and availiable online at https://linacreschoolofdefence.org/L...Page/Page.html

And Donald McBane's "The Expert Sword-man's Companion" published 1728 and currently available in print in a modern edit by Jared Kirby.
Donald McBane is primarily a small sword instructor but he does devote a small chapter to the broad sword.

Both authors only touch briefly on the use of the targe with the broad sword which has led to the Cateran Society https://cateransociety.wordpress.com/ turning to the additional resource of the Penicuik Sketches in an attempt to recreate the system.

Robert

M ELEY · 15th September 2021, 03:14 PM

Jim, that is an amazing description of the battlefield at Culloden, both exciting and terrible in the slaughter. It would have been a sight to see. What I found interesting is that there were no clear lines as to who was friend or foe to either side. Jacobites were, after all, made up of many Scots (both from the Highlands and some Lowlanders, many Irish, the French forces who supported the Bonnie Prince and a mishmash of Englishmen and others who hated the Hanoverian king.

Not all Highlanders supported the Jacobites. The two main branches of the Clan Campbell, for instance, fought against each other on rival sides. I always wondered how that worked for the clans that supported the king having to surrender their pipes, weapons after they fought for him!

I'm assuming from the reports of the battle that the vast majority of casualty at the '45 were Scots, though, as I've never heard of any French weapons being picked up off of the field at Culloden.

M ELEY · 15th September 2021, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toaster5sqn

M Eley, regarding your interest in knowing more about the Scottish fencing style the main 2 references would be:

Thomas Page's "The Use of the Broad Sword" published in 1746 and availiable online at https://linacreschoolofdefence.org/L...Page/Page.html

And Donald McBane's "The Expert Sword-man's Companion" published 1728 and currently available in print in a modern edit by Jared Kirby.
Donald McBane is primarily a small sword instructor but he does devote a small chapter to the broad sword.

Both authors only touch briefly on the use of the targe with the broad sword which has led to the Cateran Society https://cateransociety.wordpress.com/ turning to the additional resource of the Penicuik Sketches in an attempt to recreate the system.

Robert

Hello Robert and welcome to the Forum! Thank you very much for these references. I will assuredly get a copy to try and understand the nuances of Scottish fencing with the basket versus the typical rapier format. Much appreciated!

Jim McDougall · 15th September 2021, 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toaster5sqn

M Eley, regarding your interest in knowing more about the Scottish fencing style the main 2 references would be:

Thomas Page's "The Use of the Broad Sword" published in 1746 and availiable online at https://linacreschoolofdefence.org/L...Page/Page.html

And Donald McBane's "The Expert Sword-man's Companion" published 1728 and currently available in print in a modern edit by Jared Kirby.
Donald McBane is primarily a small sword instructor but he does devote a small chapter to the broad sword.

Both authors only touch briefly on the use of the targe with the broad sword which has led to the Cateran Society https://cateransociety.wordpress.com/ turning to the additional resource of the Penicuik Sketches in an attempt to recreate the system.

Robert

These are excellent references Robert! It is interesting that these masters approached 'fencing' but more in the sense of dueling and the small sword and rapier. It seems that 'fencing' is perhaps a misnomer as far as the actual use of the Scottish broadsword, and that actual combat protocol was most likely not present in anything other than familiarity in movements.

Sir William Hope was the most prolific writer on 'fencing' in the late 17th into early 18th century ("Complete Fencing Master", 1697) and his contemporary William Machrie also wrote on fencing about that time as well as Donald McBane (as you well point out).

It seems the most commonly thought of fencing writer was Henry Angelo, but he did not write until 1790s.

It would seem that, swordsman that he was, Rob Roy would have been familiar with Hope, Machrie and McBane, and Hope was a proponent of the duel (he wrote outspokenly in 1711 for this), which would come into play when the MacGregor vs. Stuart duel took place c.1730.

14th September 2021, 10:23 AM	#1
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,429	Mark, I know very little about Europeans swords ... about the blade, is it a Solingen production ? any marks, running wolf etc ? Did they make sword blades in Scotland at all ?? The blade seems to have an early look to it...

14th September 2021, 02:15 PM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,184	Hello Colin. It is my understanding that the vast majority of blades coming into the British Isles at this time were of German manufacture. This blade apears to be a common pattern, of lenticular form () in cross section, plain, unmarked (some will cry "where are the king's head marks?! Where is the 'Andria Fererra' markings and Latin symbols?! Many blades were completely unmarked. See Neumann's Guide, also Culloden:The Swords and the Sorrows for other unmarked examples) Two classic characteristics of a German blade are the broad ricasso and rounded tip on this one (I used to own two Spanish 'bilbo' broadswords with imported German blades with same rounded tip).

14th September 2021, 05:18 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	There were not really any blade forgers in any degree in the British Isles until the mid to latter 17th century, these being the Hounslow makers who who primarily Germans brought in, later the Shotley Bridge makers. During the English civil wars shops in Oxford and one or two others began, but again with mostly German makers. In the early 18th century the shops in Birmingham began, but even by the second half of the 18th century there were only three (possibly four) sword blade makers were were English. The Hounslow shops were long gone, and Shotley stubbornly hung on through the 18th c. but faltered away by early 19th. By this time Birmingham was bustling and British blade making had taken hold. As far as Scotland, there were never blade makers there, just 'sword slippers' who used foreign blades and made hilts, much as in most places where cutlers used blades from known blade forging centers. Sword making was seldom a 'comprehensive' industry, but used components made by others and assembled them together. The rounded tip on 'arming' sword blades was as Mark notes well known on German blades on these times, and designed primarily for more surface in slashing cuts, key in Scottish swordsmanship.

14th September 2021, 10:30 PM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,184	Thank you, Jim, for coming in on this one. I know you are the expert when it comes to the Scottish pieces. I had forgotten about the German smiths of Houndslow, but, as you said, they were long gone. I am unfamiliar with the Scottish fensing style with basket and hope to find information on it, especially pertaining to the slashing cut and tageting the opponent's hand inside the basket (thus, the need for the later wrist guard).

15th September 2021, 05:39 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	I'm surely no expert on these Capn, but thank you! I do clearly have a passion for them, and though I have tried to study them for many years, their history is complex and elusive. In reading through resources trying to get 'up to speed' here, I wanted to address some of the comments thus far. It is known that only some 190 swords were recovered from the field at Culloden, but over 1800 men were killed, of over 6000 troops. In the aftermath, there were paltry numbers of swords surrendered, 25 here, 50 there. Scholars insist the numbers of swords recorded were relatively few compared to muskets. However, some insights into the battle are found in "How the Scots Invented the Modern World", A.Herman ,2001: pp.152,53; paraphrasing the author, ' the clans maddened by the shelling, could no longer be held back and charged like wildcats into the British lines...most came too fast to use the muskets they were carrying....in thier bloodlust they threw their firearms away'. '..the Scots hacked at muskets with such maniacal fury that down the line men could hear the clang of swprd on barrel'. "...clansmen blindly hacking and thrusting as choking smoke closed around them....dreadful to see swords circling in the air as they were raised from strokes'. Clearly, while many writers presume from records that the numbers of muskets known to have been with the Jacobite forces, that these were the predominant arm......the Scots would not have simply carried a musket....without their faithful basket hilts. As seen here, in the fury of battle, they deferred to their distinct weapon, the sword.......'and threw muskets away'. So what then became of the probably considerable number of swords of the fallen. Many of these men were of closely related clans, and these swords were inherently sacred, so in my opinion, many of these were taken by thier relatives and among those who fled the field. Then as noted by the author, (p.150), "..warriors hid their swords and targes in the heath, hoping that they or their children would remember where they had buried them'. In most cases, these were removed to more favorable hiding places. The 'disarming act' of that year proscribed not only the weapons, but Highland dress, even bagpipes.....for generations, over 50 years. Only in the British regiments were swords permitted, and these, as Mark has described, were often produced in the garrison towns, Glasgow, Edinburgh and Stirling, and the decoration in the basket hilts became rudimentary, many hilts becoming 'munition grade'. With the wonderfully roughly done decoration in this example of Mark's, it seems to be of Glasgow form, but not of the munitions grade forms of post Culloden.....here noting that Glasgow and Stirling still produced worthy hilts for British cavalry officers in the Highland dragoon regiments. The first Jacobite rebellions began in 1689, with uprisings in 1715 and 1719, and while Glasgow became a primary garrison town in these times, there were hammermen in the environs who would fashion thier own versions of these well known hilts. These men were of course outside the records of established hammermen. In an earlier post, it was asked whether any Scots produced blades. In the writing of Charles Whitelaw (1934), the venerable sage of the study of Scottish arms, I found two cases which he thought were NOT imported blades. These were (p.309, plate IV#4; plate V, #2,#3) Both were basket hilts by W. Allen (Walter Allen of Glasgow, later Stirling). He suggested these blades were by Allen, and not imported. Both blades were with the favored ANDREA FERARA name, which was of course typically on the German imports, so it is curious how he arrived at this conclusion, but is noted here regarding the possibility of Scottish blade production.

15th September 2021, 06:07 AM	#6
toaster5sqn Member Join Date: Jul 2021 Location: New Zealand Posts: 76	M Eley, regarding your interest in knowing more about the Scottish fencing style the main 2 references would be: Thomas Page's "The Use of the Broad Sword" published in 1746 and availiable online at https://linacreschoolofdefence.org/L...Page/Page.html And Donald McBane's "The Expert Sword-man's Companion" published 1728 and currently available in print in a modern edit by Jared Kirby. Donald McBane is primarily a small sword instructor but he does devote a small chapter to the broad sword. Both authors only touch briefly on the use of the targe with the broad sword which has led to the Cateran Society https://cateransociety.wordpress.com/ turning to the additional resource of the Penicuik Sketches in an attempt to recreate the system. Robert

15th September 2021, 03:14 PM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,184	Jim, that is an amazing description of the battlefield at Culloden, both exciting and terrible in the slaughter. It would have been a sight to see. What I found interesting is that there were no clear lines as to who was friend or foe to either side. Jacobites were, after all, made up of many Scots (both from the Highlands and some Lowlanders, many Irish, the French forces who supported the Bonnie Prince and a mishmash of Englishmen and others who hated the Hanoverian king. Not all Highlanders supported the Jacobites. The two main branches of the Clan Campbell, for instance, fought against each other on rival sides. I always wondered how that worked for the clans that supported the king having to surrender their pipes, weapons after they fought for him! I'm assuming from the reports of the battle that the vast majority of casualty at the '45 were Scots, though, as I've never heard of any French weapons being picked up off of the field at Culloden.