The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... A makers mark at the ricasso is always probably the best potential for identification of a blades maker, however those of prominent smiths were of course widely copied...

Sure thing, Jim; but i take it that such marks were not (at all) so much copied as written makers names.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Sure thing, Jim; but i take it that such marks were not (at all) so much copied as written makers names.

Its really hard to say which instance was more prevalent, and of course it depended greatly on when, where, and who. There were always attempts to regulate the proper use of markings by guilds etc. but naturally deviation is inevitable, so purloined marks were always possible.

One of the most well established signals on markings etc. on blades made in Germany (not only Solingen, but Munich as well) bearing spurious marks and inscriptions is these assembled incongruently. For example an inscription or name used along with the marking of an earlier Toledo smith which does not match.

In Solingen also, names were used in the sense of a 'brand', and the famed Toledo 'Sahagum' name of the previous century became much favored for clientele in Europe and North Countries.
The well known 'Spanish motto' (draw me without reason etc) was used on Solingen made dragoon sword blades specifically for the colonies in New Spain around early 18th c. However, with this motto, as you pointed out some years back, it does seem to have existed earlier .

The most well known of purloined names was ANDREA FERARA, the well known Belluno maker, whose name became a symbol of quality, and used by Solingen specifically for Scottish cutlers. Blades with this name have been found on occasion in other context, but almost invariably occur on Scottish swords.

I have seen the names JESUS and MARIA on rapier blades which most probably represent the Toledo smith Tomas Aiala on a rapier blade found on a late 17th century Spanish shipwreck off Panama. It seems this marking with one name one side the other obverse, was known to be used by only two Toledo smiths of previous century, but the mark at the ricasso had nothing to do with either, so it would seem this was again a Solingen product.

As the blade industry in Toledo had been steadily deteriorating through the 17th century, and was all but gone by the end, Solingen was of course eager to supply blades in their stead.
The use of Spanish names and markings became almost standard on these German blades as symbolic of the quality of the renowned Toledo.

[fernando]

Well, all those considerations sound familiar Jim but, nothing in them deny that spurious smiths names are much more abundant than spurious punzones de espadero ... by far .
Yours humbly !

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Well, all those considerations sound familiar Jim but, nothing in them deny that spurious smiths names are much more abundant than spurious punzones de espadero ... by far .
Yours humbly !

I would imagine they would be most familiar to you considering how long you have studied, but mostly I wanted to detail them here for readers who may be following this line of research. Naturally these details cannot establish which instance may be more common, the use of names or the use of punzones.

I might suggest that in the 'legal' or regulatory aspects of the registration of marks/punzones there were consequences for using the mark of someone else while such wording in statutes did not include the use of names, phrases etc.
I would not try to assert that spurious use of either was more common one over the other, but perhaps this aspect might have had some bearing.
Interestingly, in Solingen, despite the spurious use of foreign markings, German makers went through considerable legal process to purchase use of marks of another maker. In England, the London Cutlers company has detailed records of permissions and grants for marks used by various makers, and forbad the unauthorized use of the mark of another.

I recall reading some time ago that English makers did not like to put their names on their blades as they thought it pretentious, but with the entry of German smiths into the Hounslow shops in the early 17th c. that changed.
With Toledo in demise, for a time in the 17th c. a number of German smiths from Solingen worked there and changed the character of their names being inscribed on their blades, Heinrick Koll for example became Enrique Coll.

I would point out here as well that most makers had more than one mark or punzone, and in the case of families, certain variations or entirely different stamps were used. In certain cases, in Toledo, there were also certain marks which were indicators of the status of espadero del Rey, where tax exemptions were involved. The famed 'man in the moon' crescent seems to have been one of these augmentations. These of course also had certain magic and talismanic properties so it is difficult to specifically identify their use.

Basically, whether marks or names used spuriously on blades had more instance one over the other is anybody's guess, and as always the blade being examined must be judged on its overall merits and clues.

[fernando]

Interesting, the note on English makers omitting their marks to prevent them from been considered pretentious. As written in reliable (as i find) articles, Toledan masters often omitted them on basis that they were known enough to have their blades identified without them. This (article) in relation to explain why Toledan blades were many times not marked. And so other many times they punctured the mark/s of the Toledo guild, instead of their own.
By marks, for the case, the interpretation is related with the smith personal punzones, those often inherited from their ancestors, and not symbols, esoteric or not, like half moons, anchors, ranks (espadero de rey) and other decoration motifs. The reason i tend to assure that the presence of those punzones on blades being inferior to faked smiths names, other than the (supposed) reason above is that, while a name of a famous smith written on the blade is something immediately noticed, ringing a bell to potencial customers, whereas the punzon, being of diminute dimensions, hidden behind the cup bowl and somehow an encripted motif, means little to such customers. In other words lacking marketing appeal.
The 'nationalizing' of names, like Heinrick Koll becoming Enrique Coll, is also a marketing operation ... but not only. Since early times that such procedure takes place; making it easy for locals to spell and pronounce a foreigner name. We usually had, for example, Flemish bombarders aboard ships and German cannon smelters in Lisbon arsenals during the discoveries period, as well as Biscays (even Jews) working in local armour workshops, having their names simplified.


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[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Interesting, the note on English makers omitting their marks to prevent them from been considered pretentious. As written in reliable (as i find) articles, Toledan masters often omitted them on basis that they were known enough to have their blades identified without them. This (article) in relation to explain why Toledan blades were many times not marked. And so other many times they punctured the mark/s of the Toledo guild, instead of their own.
By marks, for the case, the interpretation is related with the smith personal punzones, those often inherited from their ancestors, and not symbols, esoteric or not, like half moons, anchors, ranks (espadero de rey) and other decoration motifs. The reason i tend to assure that the presence of those punzones on blades being inferior to faked smiths names, other than the (supposed) reason above is that, while a name of a famous smith written on the blade is something immediately noticed, ringing a bell to potencial customers, whereas the punzon, being of diminute dimensions, hidden behind the cup bowl and somehow an encripted motif, means little to such customers. In other words lacking marketing appeal.
The 'nationalizing' of names, like Heinrick Koll becoming Enrique Coll, is also a marketing operation ... but not only. Since early times that such procedure takes place; making it easy for locals to spell and pronounce a foreigner name. We usually had, for example, Flemish bombarders aboard ships and German cannon smelters in Lisbon arsenals during the discoveries period, as well as Biscays (even Jews) working in local armour workshops, having their names simplified.


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On continuing research through my resources regarding mostly rapiers, but in the case of markings and names, I must note that I have found considerable support for your contention of the use of names on blades.
In most cases it was as you suggest of course not meant as forgery, but to herald the quality of the blade.
While I found numerous cases of spurious punzones used, I believe there was distinctly a pronounced use of names as you note, in fact more so than I had realized.
You also well note the 'simplification' of names in spellings and context of language, which was another case of names used in reference to quality .

It is always interesting when conflicting views lead to gainful discussion, where the process brings valuable conclusions and learning to the fore.
Thank you.