Unusual Quaddara

ariel · 10th July 2021, 01:19 AM

Interested Party,
Thanks for finding the old kindjal pics.
The complicated system of fullers is very similar to my example. In turn, as I have noted earlier, there is an uncanny resemblance to the Trabzon Surmene daggers.
Very interesting. Quite likely, that the coins under the bosses are Iranian.

Do my eyes fool me, or is there a yataghan-ish curving of the blade?

What especially puzzled me ( pleasantly) was Arsendaddy’s aside that he considered this type of daggers to be the Caucasian ( Trabzon????? - my addition) progenitor of the Iranian qaddara. I have mentioned before Kirill Rivkin’s opinion that Georgian singe-edged kindjals migrated to Azerbaidjan and from there to Iran, and Vakhtang Kiziria’s version of Kakhetian Sabarkali fulfilling the same role.
These three Caucasian aficionados seem to tell the same story, but from different angles. If their common story has legs, mine may be quite older than the traditional “ 19th century”.
Waiting for Kwiatek.

ariel · 10th July 2021, 02:13 AM

Ian,
The two Russian forumites ( if they exist at all) suggesting that there are some circumstantial hair-splitting inconsistencies may not be entirely blamed. They may be just exhibiting a somewhat paranoidal attitude to dating and authenticating of any objects.
I visit ( passively) Russian old weapons Fora, and in 95%of cases anything shown there immediately defined as fake on the basis of imaginary minor inconsistencies and personal peculiarities. And, what is indeed sad, they have a reason to be paranoid: contemporary Russian antiquarian business is permeated with obviously crude fakes, almost on the order of magnitude with India ( even taking into account the 10-fold difference in populations). Several identical shiny shashkas are put on the same auction one after another, each as a “unique example”, Chinese “katanas” as Koto, munition quality tulwars as belonging to one shah or another, composite pieces as 15th century etc. Add to it self-proclaimed “experts”, who will add a certificate of authenticity for anything the seller wants, frequent incompetence of the museum experts etc, etc.

In that climate it must be awfully hard to recognize even a real gem. I don't blame them, I sympathize with them, but take everything they say with not just a grain, but with a pound of salt.

Interested Party · 10th July 2021, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Interested Party,
Thanks for finding the old kindjal pics.
The complicated system of fullers is very similar to my example. In turn, as I have noted earlier, there is an uncanny resemblance to the Trabzon Surmene daggers.
Very interesting. Quite likely, that the coins under the bosses are Iranian.

Do my eyes fool me, or is there a yataghan-ish curving of the blade?

What especially puzzled me ( pleasantly) was Arsendaddy’s aside that he considered this type of daggers to be the Caucasian ( Trabzon????? - my addition) progenitor of the Iranian qaddara. I have mentioned before Kirill Rivkin’s opinion that Georgian singe-edged kindjals migrated to Azerbaidjan and from there to Iran, and Vakhtang Kiziria’s version of Kakhetian Sabarkali fulfilling the same role.
These three Caucasian aficionados seem to tell the same story, but from different angles. If their common story has legs, mine may be quite older than the traditional “ 19th century”.
Waiting for Kwiatek.

I see a curve too. That said its back appears straight while the back of you blade appears curve. So it could be recurved or simply well used. There is also how poor photos can create distortions, so please take my analysis with a grain of salt. The handle restoration indicates use during its working life. The fullers though are very similar.

I thought the Trabzon reference was interesting. That said I found this as I have been combing through old threads for a different interest. What I found is that in the 2004-15 range Trabzon seemed a bit of a catch all attribution. I found one thread with a very Gurian looking piece thrown in with Trabzon. Though in this case it seems more likely as the OP's quadarresque style doesn't have another home. It will be interesting if we get information concerning the inscriptions to help fact check our theories.

10th July 2021, 01:19 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Interested Party, Thanks for finding the old kindjal pics. The complicated system of fullers is very similar to my example. In turn, as I have noted earlier, there is an uncanny resemblance to the Trabzon Surmene daggers. Very interesting. Quite likely, that the coins under the bosses are Iranian. Do my eyes fool me, or is there a yataghan-ish curving of the blade? What especially puzzled me ( pleasantly) was Arsendaddy’s aside that he considered this type of daggers to be the Caucasian ( Trabzon????? - my addition) progenitor of the Iranian qaddara. I have mentioned before Kirill Rivkin’s opinion that Georgian singe-edged kindjals migrated to Azerbaidjan and from there to Iran, and Vakhtang Kiziria’s version of Kakhetian Sabarkali fulfilling the same role. These three Caucasian aficionados seem to tell the same story, but from different angles. If their common story has legs, mine may be quite older than the traditional “ 19th century”. Waiting for Kwiatek. Last edited by ariel; 10th July 2021 at 01:46 AM.

10th July 2021, 02:13 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Ian, The two Russian forumites ( if they exist at all) suggesting that there are some circumstantial hair-splitting inconsistencies may not be entirely blamed. They may be just exhibiting a somewhat paranoidal attitude to dating and authenticating of any objects. I visit ( passively) Russian old weapons Fora, and in 95%of cases anything shown there immediately defined as fake on the basis of imaginary minor inconsistencies and personal peculiarities. And, what is indeed sad, they have a reason to be paranoid: contemporary Russian antiquarian business is permeated with obviously crude fakes, almost on the order of magnitude with India ( even taking into account the 10-fold difference in populations). Several identical shiny shashkas are put on the same auction one after another, each as a “unique example”, Chinese “katanas” as Koto, munition quality tulwars as belonging to one shah or another, composite pieces as 15th century etc. Add to it self-proclaimed “experts”, who will add a certificate of authenticity for anything the seller wants, frequent incompetence of the museum experts etc, etc. In that climate it must be awfully hard to recognize even a real gem. I don't blame them, I sympathize with them, but take everything they say with not just a grain, but with a pound of salt.