Chinese sword for comments

Yu-Ming Chang · 1st June 2006, 08:56 PM

Does anyone know what the standards/regulations are for antiques being shipped out of Hong Kong? I assuming that enforcement policies are somewhat different?

VANDOO · 2nd June 2006, 12:31 AM

THINGS USED TO BE DIFFERENT BEFORE HONG KONG PASSED BACK INTO CHINESE HANDS BUT I ASSUME THE SAME LAWS NOW APPLY AS IT IS ONE COUNTRY. WHEN CHINA FIRST STARTED TO OPEN HER DOORS THERE WERE WHAT THEY CALLED (FRIENDSHIP STORES, IF I REMEMBER CORECTLY) THEY ACTUALLY SOLD SOME NICE AUTHENTIC ANTIQUES. THEY WERE THE ONLY PLACES WHERE A FORIGNER COULD BUY ANYTHING AS THEY DIDN'T ALLOW FORIGNERS TO HAVE CHINESE MONEY OR SPEND THEIR CURRENCY. I WISH I HAD BOUGHT SOME OF THE SWORDS THEN AS I HAVEN'T SEEN ANYTHING OF THAT QUALITY OFFERED SINCE.

I HAVE SEVERAL OF THE BRONZE REPLICA WEAPONS WITH THE RED WAX SEAL FOR EXPORT BUT THAT DOSEN'T PREFORM THE MIRICLE OF MAKING THEM AN AUTHENTIC ANTIQUE BRONZE AGE SWORD. I THINK MOST OF THE GOOD PATINATED EXAMPLES WERE MADE PRE WW2 AND THEN SET IN SHOPS ALL OVER CHINA AFTER THE COMMUNIST REVOLUTION AND THEN HAD A MARKET AGAIN WHEN CHINA FINNALY OPENED HER DOORS AGAIN.

IT IS INTERESTING THAT PRE COMMUNIST CHINA HONORED ITS PAST AND COMMUNIST CHINA SAID THE PAST AND ALL OLD THINGS WERE DEAD AND NOT IMPORTANT AND THE OLD WAYS SHOULD BE FORGOTTEN. THERE NOW SEEMS TO BE A CHANGE TO ALLOW THEM TO BE PROUD SELECTIVLY OF THEIR HISTORY AND TO PASS LAWS TO KEEP ANYTHING OLD FROM BEING SOLD OUTSIDE THE COUNTRY. UNFORTUNATELY FOR THE PEOPLE MANY ITEMS ARE COMMON AND OF NO VALUE LOCALLY AND COULD BE SOLD OUTSIDE CHINA IF IT WERE LEGAL. THESE ARE JUST MY OBSERVATIONS AND IT IS A LOT MORE COMPLICATED THAN THESE THOUGHTS.

Nagawarrior · 2nd June 2006, 01:01 AM

Thanks to all for your replies. I've learned a lot. Yes Rick, I should invest in a book or two about Chinese weapons. I don't intend to buy more than one or two. If I spend money on books it kills my limited budget. But then I my lose by purchasing a bad piece. Its a catch 22 I guess. I'll also stay away from auctions located in China. I don't want to break the law or take any chances.
The sword the the local sword shop has, is exactly like the one in the auction. So if people responded well to the one in the auction I would go back and purchase it. Now I think he has one of the Newly created Chinese swords at his shop. I asked him about the cheap looking mounts verses the rather good blade. His answer was that they didn't spend much on the mounts for mass issue fighting weapons in time of war. I asked if I could take a picture and he got offended that I wasn't taking his word about the antiquity of the sword. I've learned through experience not to trust any dealer. A quote from one well known dealer, "all dealers B.S. from time to time." I've had tails spun for me, let me tell you. I get that deer in the headlight look in my eyes and they know they got me. I hear what I want to hear I guess. Then regret it later after I've had time to think.
So I guess this shows one how important it is to educate yourself and only trust your own knowledge. It takes so many years to develop, and so many mistakes. I've learned much since my first collecting experiences. Thanks to all here at the forum for accelerating the learning process.

Rick · 2nd June 2006, 01:15 AM

I've learned through experience not to trust any dealer. A quote from one well known dealer, "all dealers B.S. from time to time."

Not all Naga , not all ....

Nagawarrior · 2nd June 2006, 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I've learned through experience not to trust any dealer. A quote from one well known dealer, "all dealers B.S. from time to time."

Not all Naga , not all ....

Your are right Rick. I can name at least one right now, **** ****** . I've dealt with him for many years. A more honest and knowledgable dealer is hard to find. I highly recommend a look at his latest catalog. Thanks for the encouragement Rick.

Rick · 2nd June 2006, 01:40 AM

More than that ; a friend .

There are others too ; but we are not here to make public recommendations ; twouldn't be at all fair .

Recommendations belong in Swap I'd guess .

Yu-Ming Chang · 2nd June 2006, 03:59 AM

Hi Naga,

Not an expert by any means and I apologize for any mistakes that I may be putting down here, but I've made it something of a hobby picking up these cheaper pieces and have occassionally turned up some very fine stuff. I apologize if I'm telling you things you already know, but if you are going to go back and buy from that "brick and mortar" dealer, make sure the piece in question has an insert edge (qiangang). Modern "fakers" may use pattern welded steel (the pattern of which doesn't really resemble most of the "real" antiques in my limited experience), but do not usually add the insert edge. It would become cost prohibitive to do so.

Whilst I can't say anything about the legal ramifications of buying from this dealer, or if this dealer is who I think he/she is, I can say that from the pictures provided you can clearly see the line demarcating the body of the dao and the insert edge. In fact, at some spots there are signs of either cold shuts or delamination at the weld between the body and edge.

However, this dao in question is a very typical duan dao (short saber) from the late Qing, a dime a dozen really. These things were then often used right up to the Chinese civil war (a most vivid (and depressing) picture is one reproduced in China, A New History by Fairbanks and Goldman, ISBN 0-674-11673-9, plate 39; which shows young children of the Communist forces posing with dao in hand. One of the children is holding a willowleaf type dao, but none-the-less similar to the piece in discussion). Thus the scabbard is very new and the grip is most likely a later replacement. If you wait around long enough, sometimes you see these pieces (or decorative "bazaar" versions) being sold en suite with rayskin scabbards on ebay from American sellers so....

1st June 2006, 08:56 PM	#1
Yu-Ming Chang Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 21	Does anyone know what the standards/regulations are for antiques being shipped out of Hong Kong? I assuming that enforcement policies are somewhat different?

2nd June 2006, 12:31 AM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THINGS USED TO BE DIFFERENT BEFORE HONG KONG PASSED BACK INTO CHINESE HANDS BUT I ASSUME THE SAME LAWS NOW APPLY AS IT IS ONE COUNTRY. WHEN CHINA FIRST STARTED TO OPEN HER DOORS THERE WERE WHAT THEY CALLED (FRIENDSHIP STORES, IF I REMEMBER CORECTLY) THEY ACTUALLY SOLD SOME NICE AUTHENTIC ANTIQUES. THEY WERE THE ONLY PLACES WHERE A FORIGNER COULD BUY ANYTHING AS THEY DIDN'T ALLOW FORIGNERS TO HAVE CHINESE MONEY OR SPEND THEIR CURRENCY. I WISH I HAD BOUGHT SOME OF THE SWORDS THEN AS I HAVEN'T SEEN ANYTHING OF THAT QUALITY OFFERED SINCE. I HAVE SEVERAL OF THE BRONZE REPLICA WEAPONS WITH THE RED WAX SEAL FOR EXPORT BUT THAT DOSEN'T PREFORM THE MIRICLE OF MAKING THEM AN AUTHENTIC ANTIQUE BRONZE AGE SWORD. I THINK MOST OF THE GOOD PATINATED EXAMPLES WERE MADE PRE WW2 AND THEN SET IN SHOPS ALL OVER CHINA AFTER THE COMMUNIST REVOLUTION AND THEN HAD A MARKET AGAIN WHEN CHINA FINNALY OPENED HER DOORS AGAIN. IT IS INTERESTING THAT PRE COMMUNIST CHINA HONORED ITS PAST AND COMMUNIST CHINA SAID THE PAST AND ALL OLD THINGS WERE DEAD AND NOT IMPORTANT AND THE OLD WAYS SHOULD BE FORGOTTEN. THERE NOW SEEMS TO BE A CHANGE TO ALLOW THEM TO BE PROUD SELECTIVLY OF THEIR HISTORY AND TO PASS LAWS TO KEEP ANYTHING OLD FROM BEING SOLD OUTSIDE THE COUNTRY. UNFORTUNATELY FOR THE PEOPLE MANY ITEMS ARE COMMON AND OF NO VALUE LOCALLY AND COULD BE SOLD OUTSIDE CHINA IF IT WERE LEGAL. THESE ARE JUST MY OBSERVATIONS AND IT IS A LOT MORE COMPLICATED THAN THESE THOUGHTS.

2nd June 2006, 01:01 AM	#3
Nagawarrior Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Inland Empire, Southern California USA Posts: 160	Thanks to all for your replies. I've learned a lot. Yes Rick, I should invest in a book or two about Chinese weapons. I don't intend to buy more than one or two. If I spend money on books it kills my limited budget. But then I my lose by purchasing a bad piece. Its a catch 22 I guess. I'll also stay away from auctions located in China. I don't want to break the law or take any chances. The sword the the local sword shop has, is exactly like the one in the auction. So if people responded well to the one in the auction I would go back and purchase it. Now I think he has one of the Newly created Chinese swords at his shop. I asked him about the cheap looking mounts verses the rather good blade. His answer was that they didn't spend much on the mounts for mass issue fighting weapons in time of war. I asked if I could take a picture and he got offended that I wasn't taking his word about the antiquity of the sword. I've learned through experience not to trust any dealer. A quote from one well known dealer, "all dealers B.S. from time to time." I've had tails spun for me, let me tell you. I get that deer in the headlight look in my eyes and they know they got me. I hear what I want to hear I guess. Then regret it later after I've had time to think. So I guess this shows one how important it is to educate yourself and only trust your own knowledge. It takes so many years to develop, and so many mistakes. I've learned much since my first collecting experiences. Thanks to all here at the forum for accelerating the learning process.

2nd June 2006, 01:15 AM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	I've learned through experience not to trust any dealer. A quote from one well known dealer, "all dealers B.S. from time to time." Not all Naga , not all ....

2nd June 2006, 01:40 AM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	More than that ; a friend . There are others too ; but we are not here to make public recommendations ; twouldn't be at all fair . Recommendations belong in Swap I'd guess .

2nd June 2006, 03:59 AM	#7
Yu-Ming Chang Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 21	Hi Naga, Not an expert by any means and I apologize for any mistakes that I may be putting down here, but I've made it something of a hobby picking up these cheaper pieces and have occassionally turned up some very fine stuff. I apologize if I'm telling you things you already know, but if you are going to go back and buy from that "brick and mortar" dealer, make sure the piece in question has an insert edge (qiangang). Modern "fakers" may use pattern welded steel (the pattern of which doesn't really resemble most of the "real" antiques in my limited experience), but do not usually add the insert edge. It would become cost prohibitive to do so. Whilst I can't say anything about the legal ramifications of buying from this dealer, or if this dealer is who I think he/she is, I can say that from the pictures provided you can clearly see the line demarcating the body of the dao and the insert edge. In fact, at some spots there are signs of either cold shuts or delamination at the weld between the body and edge. However, this dao in question is a very typical duan dao (short saber) from the late Qing, a dime a dozen really. These things were then often used right up to the Chinese civil war (a most vivid (and depressing) picture is one reproduced in China, A New History by Fairbanks and Goldman, ISBN 0-674-11673-9, plate 39; which shows young children of the Communist forces posing with dao in hand. One of the children is holding a willowleaf type dao, but none-the-less similar to the piece in discussion). Thus the scabbard is very new and the grip is most likely a later replacement. If you wait around long enough, sometimes you see these pieces (or decorative "bazaar" versions) being sold en suite with rayskin scabbards on ebay from American sellers so....