Please help witha European blade in a Japanese tachi mount

[Philip]

Originally Posted by pbleed

2. In addition to the overall “look”, two aspects of this tachi seem clearly “Japanese” to me. I think the polish really looks like a Japanese treatment, especially with the addition of a false “hamon.” I am also convinced that the clouds with dragon embellishments on the scabbard is ‘Japanese.’
3. There was, as well, a great fad in Japan during the late middle Edo period when wealthy fops like to get dressed up in foreign gear. I think this is the kind of thing that a wealthy guy could enjoy wearing when he was “on the town.”
Thanks for your help!
Peter

Hi, Peter

Your comments have prompted me to look at this sword yet again, and to be frank, the more I see of it the less inclined I am to think that this is a Japanese conversion. Most apparent is the workmanship, or rather the lack therof. The preceding two examples from museum collections show how carefully the remounts were done in a Japanese context. Both those pieces have habakis , features which are hallmarks of Japanese blades. A good kessho polish would create a much more convincing hamon. (and wouldn't a Japanese style polish deserve a proper scabbard and a habaki in order to keep the finish from getting rubbed and scraped?).

Stylistically, I see your point about a Japanese aesthetic. But I've seen similar cloud and dragon motifs on Korean scabbards as well, and there is a Joseon-era sword in the Met that has loose-ring suspension fittings just like this one. I attach an image of a Korean byeolun-geom which has the au naturel rayskin without silk wrapping on the hilt; indeed, unwrapped grips are far more prevalent on Korean swords than on Japanese. Also, the deep rounded pommel on your sword is practically identical to that on a Korean ferrule/pommel set I used to have, and the boar eye motif on same mirrors that on your sword's guard, whose engraved floral deco are also quite similar to what I've seen on other Korean mountings.

The overall build quality of your sword is also more in keeping with that of the munition-grade arms made late in Korea's dynastic history.

Lastly, I have seen pics of swords on display in military museums in Korea, and semi-Western styles were adopted towards the end of the royal period in the 19th cent.

[Jim McDougall]

In keeping with Philips resoundingly astute suggestion of a Korean attribution here with this fascinating saber, I wanted to add some notes that I have come up with which might be salient in this consideration.

Until the arrival of Perry in 1854, Japan was indeed isolated as far as trade etc. with the world, however, the single inroad was the Dutch (former VOC) entrepot at Dejima Island (off coast of Nagasaki). Here trade with the west transpired into the East Indies networks.
This is a possible entry for a blade of German form of these '1796' types and as noted with Solingen or Dutch production, into possible Japanese context.

As Great Britain was of course quite colonially present in Hong Kong and other Chinese locations near mid century of course, there are possibilities for such British blades to have filtered into these same trade networks.
I would note here that I have seen (but no longer have images) of a complete M1796 British M1796 heavy cavalry sword with Chinese markings on the hilt, which was I believe among captured arms during the "Boxer Rebellion' (1900).

With this motif of clouds and dragons etc. on the scabbard, it seems that such decoration (in European favor with the Oriental styles I mentioned before used with these types of decoration) is seen on some Chinese weapons.

However, those styles of China seem like, as mentioned, may have made it into Korea as well.

I have a Korean 'peadao' (if I am correct on term) which as Philip has noted, would fall largely into the 'munitions' grade Korean arms made in mid 19thc possibly earlier. In this case, while the pommel cap and tsuba are quite simple, the grip is indeed wrapped and there is a habaki.
If I have understood correctly , after the Japanese take over in 1910, most Korean swords were destroyed.

I think there is a good case for this being a Korean use of this blade, whether British or German (I still feel it is British), and very likely c. mid century or slightly later. I think the cross on the reverse of the hilt is notably significant as well, considering the missionary circumstances in both China and Korea.

[Philip]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

As Great Britain was of course quite colonially present in Hong Kong and other Chinese locations near mid century of course, there are possibilities for such British blades to have filtered into these same trade networks.
I would note here that I have seen (but no longer have images) of a complete M1796 British M1796 heavy cavalry sword with Chinese markings on the hilt, which was I believe among captured arms during the "Boxer Rebellion' (1900).

I have a Korean 'peadao' (if I am correct on term) which as Philip has noted, would fall largely into the 'munitions' grade Korean arms made in mid 19thc possibly earlier. In this case, while the pommel cap and tsuba are quite simple, the grip is indeed wrapped and there is a habaki.
If I have understood correctly , after the Japanese take over in 1910, most Korean swords were destroyed.

I think there is a good case for this being a Korean use of this blade, whether British or German (I still feel it is British), and very likely c. mid century or slightly later. I think the cross on the reverse of the hilt is notably significant as well, considering the missionary circumstances in both China and Korea.

A Chinese-marked M1796 is not such an oddity considering that the Qing Dynasty was constantly at war with rebel and insurgent forces from the mid-19th cent. until its downfall. Arms merchants made fortunes importing weapons for all sides. The Manchu rulers were so strapped that during the Taiping Rebellion (which was far more destructive than the Boxer), the government utilized an ad-hoc force, the Ever-Victorious Army, ultimately led by Gen. Charles "Chinese" Gordon who later won laurels in the Sudan. Later in the century, Winchester printed a Chinese edition of its catalog, and wealthy merchants in the Canton area equipped their home town militias with better rifles than the Peking garrisons had. Krupp and Mauser also made a ton of money selling cannon and rifles not only to the Qing but the Ottomans as well.

The Korean munition-grade saber in the images you posted is a hwando, and indeed, most of those are wrapped with cloth braid. But there were other types of Korean saber, such as the mun'gwando and the byeolun'geom which mostly had unwrapped grips, surfaced with either bare ray skin or polished hardwood. The Korean version of the habaki is readily distinguished in form from the Chinese tunkou. Also it is of simpler construction than the original Japanese and doesn't seal the mouth of the scabbard as efficiently.

I don't know what to make of the cruciform pattern of the rayskin pieces under the central grip fitting. If it were a clandestine symbol, it is not as subtle as one would expect. Rather roughly executed, though perhaps not too out of place considering the overall level of craftsmanship elsewhere.

As I recall, Japan relaxed its proscriptions on Christianity not long after its opening to the West. Catholic and Eastern Orthodox missions were founded in the late 19th cent., and American Protestants were active as well. (I once read an article in an encyclopedia that the two wheeled people-powered cab called a jinriksha (rickshaw) was invented by one of these enterprising Yankee preachers, considering that Japan had a shortage of horses.)

Be that as it may, the kingdom of Korea was extremely hostile towards foreigners and the Christian faith. Outsiders were not tolerated in the country, and beliefs outside the scope of Buddhism, the native shamanism, and the official Confucian socio-political orthodoxy were savagely persecuted. This paralleled similar hostility, combined with persecution and massacres, in China (1890s-1900), Japan (persecution and closure of country, 17th cent.), and Vietnam (mass martyrdom of Catholics during the early 19th cent.). Their rulers wanted to avoid a repeat of how the Portuguese humiliated the Sultan of Malacca, the Dutch and Spanish taking insular SE Asia, and Britain ultimately gulping up India. They were convinced by history that first come the merchants with their wares and the preachers with their religion, and after that the soldiers and cannon will finish the job, with their empires toppled or beholden to kings, queens, and a pope far away.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
Some images of a Korean sword found online. The scabbard decoration appears similar to the sword in question.
Regards,
Norman.

[midelburgo]

There is an old thread about a Japanese sword with an old Dutch VOC blade.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ies+Company%29

Regards.