Khyber knife?

ariel · 24th June 2021, 07:17 PM

In addition to being off center, the hole is far too close to the bolster to support the “ basket” khanda handle theory.
I checked my 5 “khanda” handle swords ; the rivets on all of them are 8-12 cm away from the base. That makes a good engineering sense: the farther away on the blade is the support point ( the rivet), the more forceful should be the blow to the blade to dislodge it. Also, I cannot recall ever seeing a “khyber” with the “ khanda” handle, although some modern Indian forgers might have created something like that:-)

Saracen · 24th June 2021, 08:50 PM

Alternatively: the khanda (firangi) blade was broken at the hilt, and the khyber knife handle was formed again closer to the hole.
And the bartender didn't even have to drill a hole to nail the khyber knife to the wall

Jim McDougall · 25th June 2021, 02:47 AM

I am just curious, WHY in the world would a 'Khyber' be mounted with a khanda hilt? or even a tulwar hilt?

The fact that this blade is a variant with the typical T-spine absent does not disqualify it as being of the form and probably from anywhere in the Afghan regions where these were used.

The only other Khyber blades that had 'other ' hilts mounted on them were the military style forms produced in the Machin Khana in Kabul post 2nd Afghan war (1879-80)..These were for the tribal forces serving in para military police character policing tribal areas, and while many of these had standard military blades.....many tribesmen preferred their own blades.

Throughout the Northwest Frontier and well into the Khyber Agency, there were many itinerant blacksmiths and metal workers who could have produced such similar blades following this profile, but without necessary means to produce the finer details such as the T back.

With the holes, on the examples shown with vestigial 'tunkou' as seen on yataghan blades etc. being filled with gold metal is a very old feature seen on some Islamic blades, and supposed to have certain talismanic associations. In the case of old Mamluk blades some had anywhere from one to seven holes filled in this manner.
While the other seems to have the hole in the tunkou and filled with silver metal.

There are cases of blades in the Sudan having holes drilled and filled with gold metal (probably copper) in this manner.

It is tempting to think of the British term for the Khyber as 'silliwar yataghan' and colloquially 'Khyber knife'. The Afghan term (not sure which dialect) for these is silliwar. The yataghan appellation seems odd and interesting to see examples with the tunkou feature.

The attached is an example of the 'military' style hilt as produced in Machin Khana mounted with tribal blade, the doves are a Persian affinity, which of course was prevalent in these regions.
Below that is an example of the 'military' style sword produced at Machin Khana, with the Royal Stamp and dated 1890.

ariel · 25th June 2021, 01:35 PM

The local name of the Afgani short straight or recurved sword T-bladed ( Brits called it “ khyber knife”) is Selavah.

There is a short sword in Dekkan ( straight or recurved, T-bladed) called Sailaba.

Short Kazakh and Kirghiz sword with straight or curved blade : Selebe or Seleve .

Old cossack side weapon with short and heavy blade was called suleba or (diminutive- affectionate form ) selyabka or sulebka.

One can not unreasonably hypothesize that all of these patterns and names stem from the Central-Asian source with Turkic roots and were brought to the Indo-Afghani areal with Babur in the 16th century.

ariel · 25th June 2021, 02:14 PM

Jim,
I presume that your last post contained photos of two different weapons. Am I correct? The upper one does not show the entire blade: thus we cannot be sure whether it has a native “ khyber” blade.
But the lower one is just a mass-produced military version with a blade known to us since 1879. It has nothing to do with the focus of this discussion, i.e. Afghani “ selavah”.It is a pureiy European short sword imported from different sources or, less likely, forged in some local workshop as a copy of it. The stamp might have been put in the Kabuli Mashin Khana or elsewhere.

Jim McDougall · 25th June 2021, 04:02 PM

Ariel,
Thank you so much for the clarification on the regional terms for these swords. It has only been in recent years that the actual term used locally for the 'Khyber knife' became known, and quite honestly I was unclear on the spelling and etymology of the term, selavah....which I recalled phonetically as silliwar (?).

The term 'salawar yataghan' was for many years expressed as a sort of collective term for these in general discussions, and I always wondered what 'salawar' was (I actually thought it might be a place at one time).
Then the term 'yataghan' seemed bizarre as clearly this huge knife had obviously had nothing to do with the yataghan form. I thought perhaps some sort of 'Hobson-Jobson' term the British came up with.
Colloquially however, they referred to this as a 'Khyber knife'....again defying literal reason as typically they were more of a sword with blade of knife shape.

On the illustrations, I should have made it more clear, and shown the entire blade on the 'dove enlaid' Khyber, though it seemed obvious as one had a bone grip. My intent was to show the type of hilt which was in cases placed on the Khyber blades, and I thought that the back fuller (which creates the T spine) was visible enough to distinquish .

The second weapon is very different, and indeed a 'production' model from the Machin Khana (1890), again the objective was to show where this alternative hilt form sometimes placed on Khyber's came from , and why.
Since we were discussing 'alternative' hilts being mounted on Khyber knives, it seemed pertinent and a salient factor.

It has never been entirely clear where these heavy and deeply channeled blades came from, but they were indeed used in the assembly of these swords at Machin Khana (c.1890s) where the royal stamp was added.
As the Machin Khana was primarily British subsidized and the focus on production was on rifles, I always thought this might be the reason for the 'bayonet' like construction of the hilt, much like 'sword bayonets'.
Again, I digress

attached, full Khyber previously noted.

And return to the original question...why in the world would anyone put a khanda hilt on a Khyber?

Saracen · 25th June 2021, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Since we were discussing 'alternative' hilts being mounted on Khyber knives, it seemed pertinent and a salient factor.

Hi, Jim. Probably my English played a cruel joke, but we are not discussing alternative hilts installed on the Khyber knife.
I was talking about the khanda blade or, perhaps, firangi blade, which after a breakdown, was transformed, reworked, reformatted, resharpening into a khyber knife blade and received a corresponding handle for khyber knife. From the broken blade of khanda the khyber knife blade was made. This is indicated in my opinion by the hole on the blade, the absence of a T-bladed and an uncharacteristic sharpening of the tip. I'm sorry if I was inaccurate at first.

25th June 2021, 02:47 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	I am just curious, WHY in the world would a 'Khyber' be mounted with a khanda hilt? or even a tulwar hilt? The fact that this blade is a variant with the typical T-spine absent does not disqualify it as being of the form and probably from anywhere in the Afghan regions where these were used. The only other Khyber blades that had 'other ' hilts mounted on them were the military style forms produced in the Machin Khana in Kabul post 2nd Afghan war (1879-80)..These were for the tribal forces serving in para military police character policing tribal areas, and while many of these had standard military blades.....many tribesmen preferred their own blades. Throughout the Northwest Frontier and well into the Khyber Agency, there were many itinerant blacksmiths and metal workers who could have produced such similar blades following this profile, but without necessary means to produce the finer details such as the T back. With the holes, on the examples shown with vestigial 'tunkou' as seen on yataghan blades etc. being filled with gold metal is a very old feature seen on some Islamic blades, and supposed to have certain talismanic associations. In the case of old Mamluk blades some had anywhere from one to seven holes filled in this manner. While the other seems to have the hole in the tunkou and filled with silver metal. There are cases of blades in the Sudan having holes drilled and filled with gold metal (probably copper) in this manner. It is tempting to think of the British term for the Khyber as 'silliwar yataghan' and colloquially 'Khyber knife'. The Afghan term (not sure which dialect) for these is silliwar. The yataghan appellation seems odd and interesting to see examples with the tunkou feature. The attached is an example of the 'military' style hilt as produced in Machin Khana mounted with tribal blade, the doves are a Persian affinity, which of course was prevalent in these regions. Below that is an example of the 'military' style sword produced at Machin Khana, with the Royal Stamp and dated 1890. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 25th June 2021 at 03:04 AM.

25th June 2021, 04:02 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	Ariel, Thank you so much for the clarification on the regional terms for these swords. It has only been in recent years that the actual term used locally for the 'Khyber knife' became known, and quite honestly I was unclear on the spelling and etymology of the term, selavah....which I recalled phonetically as silliwar (?). The term 'salawar yataghan' was for many years expressed as a sort of collective term for these in general discussions, and I always wondered what 'salawar' was (I actually thought it might be a place at one time). Then the term 'yataghan' seemed bizarre as clearly this huge knife had obviously had nothing to do with the yataghan form. I thought perhaps some sort of 'Hobson-Jobson' term the British came up with. Colloquially however, they referred to this as a 'Khyber knife'....again defying literal reason as typically they were more of a sword with blade of knife shape. On the illustrations, I should have made it more clear, and shown the entire blade on the 'dove enlaid' Khyber, though it seemed obvious as one had a bone grip. My intent was to show the type of hilt which was in cases placed on the Khyber blades, and I thought that the back fuller (which creates the T spine) was visible enough to distinquish . The second weapon is very different, and indeed a 'production' model from the Machin Khana (1890), again the objective was to show where this alternative hilt form sometimes placed on Khyber's came from , and why. Since we were discussing 'alternative' hilts being mounted on Khyber knives, it seemed pertinent and a salient factor. It has never been entirely clear where these heavy and deeply channeled blades came from, but they were indeed used in the assembly of these swords at Machin Khana (c.1890s) where the royal stamp was added. As the Machin Khana was primarily British subsidized and the focus on production was on rifles, I always thought this might be the reason for the 'bayonet' like construction of the hilt, much like 'sword bayonets'. Again, I digress attached, full Khyber previously noted. And return to the original question...why in the world would anyone put a khanda hilt on a Khyber? Attached Images

24th June 2021, 07:17 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	In addition to being off center, the hole is far too close to the bolster to support the “ basket” khanda handle theory. I checked my 5 “khanda” handle swords ; the rivets on all of them are 8-12 cm away from the base. That makes a good engineering sense: the farther away on the blade is the support point ( the rivet), the more forceful should be the blow to the blade to dislodge it. Also, I cannot recall ever seeing a “khyber” with the “ khanda” handle, although some modern Indian forgers might have created something like that:-)

24th June 2021, 08:50 PM	#2
Saracen Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Posts: 147	Alternatively: the khanda (firangi) blade was broken at the hilt, and the khyber knife handle was formed again closer to the hole. And the bartender didn't even have to drill a hole to nail the khyber knife to the wall

25th June 2021, 01:35 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The local name of the Afgani short straight or recurved sword T-bladed ( Brits called it “ khyber knife”) is Selavah. There is a short sword in Dekkan ( straight or recurved, T-bladed) called Sailaba. Short Kazakh and Kirghiz sword with straight or curved blade : Selebe or Seleve . Old cossack side weapon with short and heavy blade was called suleba or (diminutive- affectionate form ) selyabka or sulebka. One can not unreasonably hypothesize that all of these patterns and names stem from the Central-Asian source with Turkic roots and were brought to the Indo-Afghani areal with Babur in the 16th century.

25th June 2021, 02:14 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Jim, I presume that your last post contained photos of two different weapons. Am I correct? The upper one does not show the entire blade: thus we cannot be sure whether it has a native “ khyber” blade. But the lower one is just a mass-produced military version with a blade known to us since 1879. It has nothing to do with the focus of this discussion, i.e. Afghani “ selavah”.It is a pureiy European short sword imported from different sources or, less likely, forged in some local workshop as a copy of it. The stamp might have been put in the Kabuli Mashin Khana or elsewhere.