Philippine Sword?

Kubur · 22nd June 2021, 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I have had information from a most reliable source that this in his opinion was indeed likely made for a European.
Also I was assured that the face and motif have nothing to do with any deity or symbolism in these regions or religious context.

Hi Jim,

Please could you share with us your infos? on which bases or criteria your contact can say that?

I think David's info is very interesting
Indonesian is indeed mostly Muslim. However Bali has an 86% Hindu population. About 15% of the population of Lombok also identifies as Hindu.

A. G. Maisey · 23rd June 2021, 01:37 AM

I checked out this thread pretty much as soon as it began, which was a bit of a fluke, because Philippine stuff does not interest me in the slightest, I was bored and chained to the computer anyway, so I had a look.

When I looked I saw not something from the Philppines, but a Javanese pedang lurus or pedang tusuk that I sold to somebody years ago.

I saw it had been correctly identified by a couple of people, I did not think it was really necessary for me to add anything, so closed the thread and did not look at it again. This morning I'm chained to my komputator again, and I noticed that this pedang thread had somehow managed to generate lots & lots of discussion.

Remarkable! This is a very ordinary little pedang lurus or pedang tusuk. "Lurus" simply means "straight", "tusuk" means "stab".

In other words a straight sword or a stabbing sword. Take your pick.

It was made in Jawa. The blade is probably older than the dress.

The dress is European influenced, it might have been made for a guard working in a princely residence, or a Dutch company office, or a grand house, either rural or urban --- or for any other non-cultural reason we may care to imagine.

In this dress it has absolutely nothing to do with Javanese cultural beliefs involving protective deities or beliefs.

Why does the pommel have a human face?

I don't know, but I do know that it would not be there if this dress was put on the blade of a person of Islamic beliefs. Maybe it represented the owner of the sugar factory where the original owner of this pedang stood guard at the entry gate.

It is very easy to get caught up in impossible beliefs when one does not have a very good knowledge of the society, history & culture of the places that produce various artefacts.

This is the reason that for many years I have encouraged people who have an interest in Indonesian weaponry to spend more time reading academic text books and papers dealing with Indonesian, and particularly Javanese & Balinese, society, culture & history, than to spend time reading about Indonesian weaponry.

Kubur · 23rd June 2021, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Why does the pommel have a human face?

I don't know, but I do know that it would not be there if this dress was put on the blade of a person of Islamic beliefs. Maybe it represented the owner of the sugar factory where the original owner of this pedang stood guard at the entry gate.

It is very easy to get caught up in impossible beliefs when one does not have a very good knowledge of the society, history & culture of the places that produce various artefacts.

Well, no. Why do you think that the human face would not be there if this dress was put on the blade of a person of Islamic beliefs?

Islamic weapons are full of animals and human representations. What you wrote is a common belief about Muslims but it is not true. Human and animal representations are only forbidden in mosques.

So yes this short sword could be for Muslims, could be for Europeans, and could be for Hindus because as far I know no one here wrote something that proved anything. Collectors feelings are good but I prefer facts.

Jim McDougall · 23rd June 2021, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Well, no. Why do you think that the human face would not be there if this dress was put on the blade of a person of Islamic beliefs?

Islamic weapons are full of animals and human representations. What you wrote is a common belief about Muslims but it is not true. Human and animal representations are only forbidden in mosques.

So yes this short sword could be for Muslims, could be for Europeans, and could be for Hindus because as far I know no one here wrote something that proved anything. Collectors feelings are good but I prefer facts.

Very interesting, so this idea that Islamic material culture only forbids representations of humans and animals in Mosques is a proven fact.
Does this apply to both Shi'a and Sunni, as well as all the Schools and Factions of each Faith and Following, which seem to be quite diverse.
I am of course curious about how your comment can be so general in such a complex topic.
Also, how is it proven to be universal in the entire Muslim Faith? Is this written as such, and observed by the entire Faith? Are there instances where these depictions are allowed outside of Mosques?

I agree on symbolism, and in the observations on art. As someone who has been intrigued by art and symbolism most of my life, I have studied as much as I can on potential meanings and such symbolism in many areas, and there are indeed times where a presumed idea of such, could not be proven, and in fact may well have just been aesthetic.

I also agree that facts are paramount when at hand, but in the absence of them, profound experience of those who have spent years, decades in a specialized field, can present compelling evidence.

A. G. Maisey · 24th June 2021, 12:00 AM

Kubur, I thank you for your very knowledgeable and perceptive comments, I believe you are expert in your own field and I have absolutely no desire at all to challenge your deep knowledge in this field.

However, I do have a very limited understanding of Javanese society, culture, anthropology, art and history, I qualify my understanding as "very limited" because I have only been involved in study of Jawa for about 60 or so years, and in truth, that is just not long enough to have a complete & thorough understanding of the things in which I have an interest.

My Javanese mentors have been palace armourers (empu) for the Kraton Surakarta Hadiningrat, and my association with these men lasted in one case for 15 years, and in the other case for around 40 years. Apart from these two men I have had long professional and personal association with a number of artists & craftsmen & dealers in the field of tosan aji for about 50 years.

When we come to consider the pedang that is the subject of this thread the fact of the matter is that I sold it to Mr. McDougal in the first place, and there is absolutely no doubt at all in my mind as to what this particular sword is.

I have seen many similar items over the years, and identification of it is about as difficult for me as the identification of a Toyota motor vehicle might be for some other people:- the Toyota has certain identifying characteristics, things like the names on the rear of the vehicle & badges on the front. For somebody in my position this pedang also has identifying characteristics.

Some things can be beliefs, other things can be fact. In the case of this pedang I am not talking about what my beliefs may be, I am talking about fact. Whether you or anybody else wishes to accept that fact is completely your choice.

Kubur · 24th June 2021, 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Kubur, I thank you for your very knowledgeable and perceptive comments, I believe you are expert in your own field and I have absolutely no desire at all to challenge your deep knowledge in this field.

Whether you or anybody else wishes to accept that fact is completely your choice.

Hi, I'm no expert in Indonesian weapons, clearly you are! I accept any conclusion based on empirical experience and argumented by facts. And I have a simple question for you, maybe I'm mistaken but it seems to me that these societies are extremely symbolic, just to mention Keris for example. So I'm very sceptical if someone says that these two faces are just two faces.

60 years, Jesus Christ...
:-)

A. G. Maisey · 24th June 2021, 09:28 AM

Yes Kubur, you're absolutely correct, this sword was produced in Jawa, and Javanese society and culture is very symbolic in nature, but this particular sword was not produced in accordance with Javanese guidelines, it was produced, or rather dressed, for a European client, this dress is colonial dress, not the type of dress that would have been on the blade originally.

I do not think the faces have no purpose, but that purpose was not related to any Javanese symbolism, it is most likely related to the employer of the man who would have worn this sword, in other words, his "Lord", probably on occasion addressed as "Sinuhun", and perhaps a little bit mockingly.

A powerful European master, and clearly a benevolent one, indicated by his broad smile, would have some protective value and would be a constant reminder to the wearer of who paid his wages and provided for his family.

23rd June 2021, 01:37 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,990	I checked out this thread pretty much as soon as it began, which was a bit of a fluke, because Philippine stuff does not interest me in the slightest, I was bored and chained to the computer anyway, so I had a look. When I looked I saw not something from the Philppines, but a Javanese pedang lurus or pedang tusuk that I sold to somebody years ago. I saw it had been correctly identified by a couple of people, I did not think it was really necessary for me to add anything, so closed the thread and did not look at it again. This morning I'm chained to my komputator again, and I noticed that this pedang thread had somehow managed to generate lots & lots of discussion. Remarkable! This is a very ordinary little pedang lurus or pedang tusuk. "Lurus" simply means "straight", "tusuk" means "stab". In other words a straight sword or a stabbing sword. Take your pick. It was made in Jawa. The blade is probably older than the dress. The dress is European influenced, it might have been made for a guard working in a princely residence, or a Dutch company office, or a grand house, either rural or urban --- or for any other non-cultural reason we may care to imagine. In this dress it has absolutely nothing to do with Javanese cultural beliefs involving protective deities or beliefs. Why does the pommel have a human face? I don't know, but I do know that it would not be there if this dress was put on the blade of a person of Islamic beliefs. Maybe it represented the owner of the sugar factory where the original owner of this pedang stood guard at the entry gate. It is very easy to get caught up in impossible beliefs when one does not have a very good knowledge of the society, history & culture of the places that produce various artefacts. This is the reason that for many years I have encouraged people who have an interest in Indonesian weaponry to spend more time reading academic text books and papers dealing with Indonesian, and particularly Javanese & Balinese, society, culture & history, than to spend time reading about Indonesian weaponry.

24th June 2021, 12:00 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,990	Kubur, I thank you for your very knowledgeable and perceptive comments, I believe you are expert in your own field and I have absolutely no desire at all to challenge your deep knowledge in this field. However, I do have a very limited understanding of Javanese society, culture, anthropology, art and history, I qualify my understanding as "very limited" because I have only been involved in study of Jawa for about 60 or so years, and in truth, that is just not long enough to have a complete & thorough understanding of the things in which I have an interest. My Javanese mentors have been palace armourers (empu) for the Kraton Surakarta Hadiningrat, and my association with these men lasted in one case for 15 years, and in the other case for around 40 years. Apart from these two men I have had long professional and personal association with a number of artists & craftsmen & dealers in the field of tosan aji for about 50 years. When we come to consider the pedang that is the subject of this thread the fact of the matter is that I sold it to Mr. McDougal in the first place, and there is absolutely no doubt at all in my mind as to what this particular sword is. I have seen many similar items over the years, and identification of it is about as difficult for me as the identification of a Toyota motor vehicle might be for some other people:- the Toyota has certain identifying characteristics, things like the names on the rear of the vehicle & badges on the front. For somebody in my position this pedang also has identifying characteristics. Some things can be beliefs, other things can be fact. In the case of this pedang I am not talking about what my beliefs may be, I am talking about fact. Whether you or anybody else wishes to accept that fact is completely your choice.

24th June 2021, 09:28 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,990	Yes Kubur, you're absolutely correct, this sword was produced in Jawa, and Javanese society and culture is very symbolic in nature, but this particular sword was not produced in accordance with Javanese guidelines, it was produced, or rather dressed, for a European client, this dress is colonial dress, not the type of dress that would have been on the blade originally. I do not think the faces have no purpose, but that purpose was not related to any Javanese symbolism, it is most likely related to the employer of the man who would have worn this sword, in other words, his "Lord", probably on occasion addressed as "Sinuhun", and perhaps a little bit mockingly. A powerful European master, and clearly a benevolent one, indicated by his broad smile, would have some protective value and would be a constant reminder to the wearer of who paid his wages and provided for his family.