Whats in a Name: The Arkansas Toothpick

fernando · 4th June 2021, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...According to Bernard Levine in his 1997 book, it appears that the original knife used by Bowie at the famed Vidalia sandbar fight was from his brother Rezin, and made by a guy known to them both named Jesse Clift...

A version consistent with what we can read out there in that Rezin passed the (his) knife on to Jim after this has been previously wounded in a way that was no longer able to handle firearms.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The knife was described by Rezin in later years, and it was actually more like a butcher knife with wood grip, three rivets, blade about 9 1//4 " by 1 1/2" wide...

This being evidence, it was not such an enormous knife, but a large one; although apparently smaller than the Joseph Musso's specimen, or the one Jim carries in the Alamo movie.

Jim McDougall · 4th June 2021, 10:28 PM

.

I am not quite clear on what this means. ...."Rezin passed his knife on to Jim after THIS has been previously wounded in a way that was no longer able to handle firearms". What was wounded? who was not able to handle firearms?

Rezin gave the knife to Jim as I previously had posted, after he had it made by Jesse Clift, and prior to the famed Vidalia fight. Jim Bowie had two guns at the fight, expended both, and was indeed wounded several times before he gave the fatal knife blows that dispatched two opponents.

Both he and Rezin, as noted, were notorious knife fighters, and after the Vidalia fight, even more renowned. They were very enterprising and capitalized on that, and apparently gave out knives on occasion to select individuals. These kinds of gifting adds to the confusion on which knife was which.

This being evidence, it was not such an enormous knife, but a large one; although apparently smaller than the Joseph Musso's specimen, or the one Jim carries in the Alamo movie.[/QUOTE] Fernando.

As previously noted the original knife was of about 9 1/4" blade and 1 1/2" wide, very much in appearance like a butcher knife, with wood grips with three rivets. This is believed to have been made from a file, which was often the case with many knives of the time.
In years after the Alamo, Rezin Bowie was very straight forward and protected his brothers reputation.
With all the popularity and contrivances with 'Bowie knives' he noted,
"...the imprivements in its fabrication and state of perfection it has acquired from experienced cutlers, was not brought about by my agency". \
open letter to editor, "Planters Advocate", Iberville, La. 24 Aug. 1838.

As to James Black as maker of Bowie knives, let alone the original:

"...there is no evidence that James Black ever made a knife for either of the Bowie's".
- "Three Roads to the Alamo: The Lives and Fortunes of David
Crockett, James Bowie and William Travis".
Willam C. Davis.

The Musso Bowie remains highly suspect despite its highly noted status, and resembles more the 'styles' of Bowie knifes produced in 60s and 70s.
and of course, movie props of recent times.

The 'toothpick' term seems to have been in use just after the Alamo and to have come from the elaborately fanciful versions of 'Davy Crockett's Almanacs' which were written in England and popularized versions of much of this lore. It was said that Kentuckian's were 'half horse/ half alligator' for example, which accounts for the zoomorphic hilts of these animals on many Bowie knives, combining these colorful attributes.

True, the original Bowie knife must have been substantial, but not as elaborate and huge as the examples created and fashioned later as noted by Rezin Bowie. However, in the hands of a skilled knife fighter it would seem enormous.

fernando · 5th June 2021, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

.

I am not quite clear on what this means. ...."Rezin passed his knife on to Jim after THIS has been previously wounded in a way that was no longer able to handle firearms". What was wounded? who was not able to handle firearms? ...

Sorry i was not clear enough, Jim; perhaps due to language differences ... As per (my) posted sentence order, that (previous) would be Rezin and this (late) is Jim.
Whether or not a speculation, as any other, you may read it here:

https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Bowie

In a rough translation:

The Bowie Knife Legend began in 1826, when Bowie survived a duel against Sheriff Norris Wright. He was injured and found it difficult to use pistols. To help his brother, Rezin gave Jim the famous knife, which he began carrying.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... True, the original Bowie knife must have been substantial, but not as elaborate and huge as the examples created and fashioned later as noted by Rezin Bowie. However, in the hands of a skilled knife fighter it would seem enormous.

In my assessment, i was not referring to the visual impact of a determined knife in the hands of a dangerous handler, but to its actual dimensions; my Mudela najava, as many, has a rather larger blade.

Jim McDougall · 5th June 2021, 05:12 PM

Thank you for the clarification, actually I was not aware of this fight in 1826, and the Wikipedia entry is quite correct. In reading more on this in Norm's book, this was apparently quite a scuffle, and Jim had only a clasp folding knife (probably a navaja) which he could not get open in the fray. He was indeed wounded but not badly, and kept fighting...it was the difficulty in getting the knife opened that was the problem.

Rezin then gave him his own knife (as previously described a hunting knife that looked like a butcher knife), which he said he had made (other accounts say it was made FOR him). This knife of Rezin's was apparently the one carried a year later at Vidalia.
He had no issue in using pistols, and at Vidalia discharged the two he was armed with, as well as another which had been dropped in the confusion of the fight by one of the other men.

It is my turn to clarify re: size and circumstance.
What I meant is that when faced with an armed and formidable opponent, and in the heat of the moment, the dimensions and character of the weapon can be expectably exaggerated visually........for example, looking down the barrel of a gun pointed at you (which unfortunately I know from first hand experience) ....no matter what it is, it 'looks like a howitzer'!!!

Much as use of the term 'toothpick' in the sense being discussed for these 'large' knives, however minimalizing it in bravado.

fernando · 5th June 2021, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... (which unfortunately I know from first hand experience) ...

Who hasn't gone through one of those ... but no details available

.

Jim McDougall · 5th June 2021, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Who hasn't gone through one of those ... but no details available

.

I rest my case

Jim McDougall · 13th June 2021, 01:43 AM

Here is an example of the similar type knife(example B) Jim Bowie used at the Sandbar fight, which was actually a blacksmiths rasp ( for shoeing horses) filed into a blade. It was given to him by his brother Rezin after the fight he was in and had difficulty opening the folding blade.

The other picture is the Bowie belonging the the famed Sioux leader Sitting Bull.

13th June 2021, 01:43 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	Here is an example of the similar type knife(example B) Jim Bowie used at the Sandbar fight, which was actually a blacksmiths rasp ( for shoeing horses) filed into a blade. It was given to him by his brother Rezin after the fight he was in and had difficulty opening the folding blade. The other picture is the Bowie belonging the the famed Sioux leader Sitting Bull. Attached Images

4th June 2021, 10:28 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	. I am not quite clear on what this means. ...."Rezin passed his knife on to Jim after THIS has been previously wounded in a way that was no longer able to handle firearms". What was wounded? who was not able to handle firearms? Rezin gave the knife to Jim as I previously had posted, after he had it made by Jesse Clift, and prior to the famed Vidalia fight. Jim Bowie had two guns at the fight, expended both, and was indeed wounded several times before he gave the fatal knife blows that dispatched two opponents. Both he and Rezin, as noted, were notorious knife fighters, and after the Vidalia fight, even more renowned. They were very enterprising and capitalized on that, and apparently gave out knives on occasion to select individuals. These kinds of gifting adds to the confusion on which knife was which. This being evidence, it was not such an enormous knife, but a large one; although apparently smaller than the Joseph Musso's specimen, or the one Jim carries in the Alamo movie.[/QUOTE] Fernando. As previously noted the original knife was of about 9 1/4" blade and 1 1/2" wide, very much in appearance like a butcher knife, with wood grips with three rivets. This is believed to have been made from a file, which was often the case with many knives of the time. In years after the Alamo, Rezin Bowie was very straight forward and protected his brothers reputation. With all the popularity and contrivances with 'Bowie knives' he noted, "...the imprivements in its fabrication and state of perfection it has acquired from experienced cutlers, was not brought about by my agency". \ open letter to editor, "Planters Advocate", Iberville, La. 24 Aug. 1838. As to James Black as maker of Bowie knives, let alone the original: "...there is no evidence that James Black ever made a knife for either of the Bowie's". - "Three Roads to the Alamo: The Lives and Fortunes of David Crockett, James Bowie and William Travis". Willam C. Davis. The Musso Bowie remains highly suspect despite its highly noted status, and resembles more the 'styles' of Bowie knifes produced in 60s and 70s. and of course, movie props of recent times. The 'toothpick' term seems to have been in use just after the Alamo and to have come from the elaborately fanciful versions of 'Davy Crockett's Almanacs' which were written in England and popularized versions of much of this lore. It was said that Kentuckian's were 'half horse/ half alligator' for example, which accounts for the zoomorphic hilts of these animals on many Bowie knives, combining these colorful attributes. True, the original Bowie knife must have been substantial, but not as elaborate and huge as the examples created and fashioned later as noted by Rezin Bowie. However, in the hands of a skilled knife fighter it would seem enormous.

5th June 2021, 05:12 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	Thank you for the clarification, actually I was not aware of this fight in 1826, and the Wikipedia entry is quite correct. In reading more on this in Norm's book, this was apparently quite a scuffle, and Jim had only a clasp folding knife (probably a navaja) which he could not get open in the fray. He was indeed wounded but not badly, and kept fighting...it was the difficulty in getting the knife opened that was the problem. Rezin then gave him his own knife (as previously described a hunting knife that looked like a butcher knife), which he said he had made (other accounts say it was made FOR him). This knife of Rezin's was apparently the one carried a year later at Vidalia. He had no issue in using pistols, and at Vidalia discharged the two he was armed with, as well as another which had been dropped in the confusion of the fight by one of the other men. It is my turn to clarify re: size and circumstance. What I meant is that when faced with an armed and formidable opponent, and in the heat of the moment, the dimensions and character of the weapon can be expectably exaggerated visually........for example, looking down the barrel of a gun pointed at you (which unfortunately I know from first hand experience) ....no matter what it is, it 'looks like a howitzer'!!! Much as use of the term 'toothpick' in the sense being discussed for these 'large' knives, however minimalizing it in bravado.