Kris naga

Jean · 31st May 2021, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Athanase

Hello,

I have already seen this style of handle 2 or 3 times sometimes with more basic Kriss blades. The patina and finish of the handles reminded me of something from the second half of the 20th century and at least one of the associated kriss blades was from the same period with certainty.
It is because of these doubts about the age of the handle (and also a little bit of the blade, the photos in the sale are not good) that I did not bid.

Well, to me this blade does not look like the recent naga blades from Madura but I will confirm upon receipt. Your opinion is the third one which I received (plus my own), and all are different! Regarding the hilt, my concern is more whether it is suitable for a kris than its age, but again I will confirm.

David · 31st May 2021, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

Regarding the hilt, my concern is more whether it is suitable for a kris than its age, but again I will confirm.

Well, i couldn't say for sure that this hilt isn't suitable for any keris. My early response in regards to this was only to say that a hilt can never really be used as an indication of the origin of the blade, unless we can be sure that it has been with that blade since the very beginning. And even then the origin of the hilt cannot be guaranteed to identify the origin of the blade.

I will wait for better images of this blade before making any comments on age, though i'm not sure that the trifolate greneng Alan remarked upon guarantees this to be a blade of any particular age since keris makers often copy older styles in later works. The seller's photos are certainly not clear enough to make any definitive remarks on the age, though unless this keris was in some European collection for a very long time i wouldn't suspect it to be of any great age.

Jean · 31st May 2021, 05:17 PM

Thank you gentlemen. My Solonese friend who is experienced in the kris trade seems to have a quite definite opinion about the blade origin but I prefer to receive the piece and post pics before sharing it with you. Regarding the hilt, he says that this type of cast brass hilt is normally used for walking or commando sticks, although he saw few fitted on krisses or daggers.

A. G. Maisey · 31st May 2021, 10:33 PM

Jean, it would be very easy to form a firm opinion about this blade & hilt, the overall condition is pristine, the hilt is not a keris hilt and could not possibly be used as the hilt of a keris for either wear or in past times as a weapon, the overall style of workmanship is Madura, Sumenep, but having said that we must be aware that there are some craftsmen in East Jawa now, particularly around Malang, who have their roots buried deep in Madura.

I do not feel that this is an old keris, there are too many tells that place it into the second half of the 20th century. However, from the early 20th century through to at least the 1990's there were a few not particularly prolific craftsmen in Jogja and across to the east who were doing similar work to this. As far as I know the last of these men passed away about 20 to 25 years ago.

If this hilt is brass, either cast or fabricated, yes, it certainly does belong on a stok komando, probably not a walking stick, it is for display only, not for any kind of practical use.

As I said, it would be easy to form a firm opinion based upon these photos, but in the absence the item itself, in the hand, it could be very difficult indeed to provide a supportable opinion.

This is the reason that I used the word "feeling".

Jean · 12th June 2021, 01:48 PM

Dear friends,
I have received the kris blade & hilt and I attach some pics, my observations are as follows:
The bade is 33 cm long excluding the pesi and has an elegant shape.
The hilt was strongly attached to the blade by means of a very old cotton cloth and natural resin (not epoxy), and it is my impression that the 2 pieces have been fitted together for at least 50 years, which seems to exclude that the blase is recent. The blade was slightly polished on the edges and a bit corroded in some areas, especially around the naga head. I can see traces of a longitudinal pamor pattern, the blade looks nicely forged and the naga figure & body are very neatly carved.
I cleaned it in a vinegar plus citric acid bath and could remove most of the corrosion and dirt in less than 24 hours. As advised earlier, the greneng has an unusual shape as well as the cirah cecak of the ganja, which could be an indicator of the origin of the blade.
As expected the hilt is made from cast brass or bronze (heavy) and I could remove most of the blue stains with a copper cleaning paste (it looks better than on the pics).
Your comments and opinion about the blade origin will be welcome!

A. G. Maisey · 13th June 2021, 10:28 PM

Jean, there are too many contradictions in this keris for me to give a supportable opinion.

The hilt definitely has nothing at all to do with keris. It just does not belong.

The cloth & resin to attach to the tang sounds to me as if the hilt is full of jabung, which would be expected & normal, and the cloth was used to give the pressure fit.

Stylistically I cannot place it. The trifolate inclusions in the greneng are not something that is at all usual in any recognised classification. The traces of working method that can be seen in the blade are not indicative of any great age. The overall impression for me is East Jawa, but I'm not going to give this as any sort of classification opinion. If I were able to handle it and feel the surface and the perceived weight (tanting), I might be able to give a supportable opinion, from a photograph I cannot.

Here is my unsupportable guess:- less than 100 years old, East Jawa.

Oh yeah, one other thing, from the side view, the sirah cecak looks short and rounded, if that is so it I'd like to move my guess either onto the North Coast or even back to Jogja.

All guesses.

Jean · 23rd June 2021, 04:54 PM

Thank you Alan and sorry for the late reply, we were travelling in France after this so looooong interruption due to the Covid pandemic...
Having the kris in my hands and in spite of the odd hilt, I tend to believe that it has some age, definitely not a kamardikan kris and I would estimate at least 100 years old. As to the provenance, I have no clue except that it does not look to be from Central Java. I had Banjarmasin in mind originally because of the cast brass hilt but this is not a sufficient indicator.
My Solonese friend seems to be convinced that it originates from (South?) Sumatra and is contemporary with the Javanese Mataram period?
I find it a very interesting naga kris anyway.
Regards

12th June 2021, 01:48 PM	#5
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Dear friends, I have received the kris blade & hilt and I attach some pics, my observations are as follows: The bade is 33 cm long excluding the pesi and has an elegant shape. The hilt was strongly attached to the blade by means of a very old cotton cloth and natural resin (not epoxy), and it is my impression that the 2 pieces have been fitted together for at least 50 years, which seems to exclude that the blase is recent. The blade was slightly polished on the edges and a bit corroded in some areas, especially around the naga head. I can see traces of a longitudinal pamor pattern, the blade looks nicely forged and the naga figure & body are very neatly carved. I cleaned it in a vinegar plus citric acid bath and could remove most of the corrosion and dirt in less than 24 hours. As advised earlier, the greneng has an unusual shape as well as the cirah cecak of the ganja, which could be an indicator of the origin of the blade. As expected the hilt is made from cast brass or bronze (heavy) and I could remove most of the blue stains with a copper cleaning paste (it looks better than on the pics). Your comments and opinion about the blade origin will be welcome! Attached Images Last edited by Jean; 13th June 2021 at 07:31 AM.

31st May 2021, 05:17 PM	#3
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Thank you gentlemen. My Solonese friend who is experienced in the kris trade seems to have a quite definite opinion about the blade origin but I prefer to receive the piece and post pics before sharing it with you. Regarding the hilt, he says that this type of cast brass hilt is normally used for walking or commando sticks, although he saw few fitted on krisses or daggers.

31st May 2021, 10:33 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,989	Jean, it would be very easy to form a firm opinion about this blade & hilt, the overall condition is pristine, the hilt is not a keris hilt and could not possibly be used as the hilt of a keris for either wear or in past times as a weapon, the overall style of workmanship is Madura, Sumenep, but having said that we must be aware that there are some craftsmen in East Jawa now, particularly around Malang, who have their roots buried deep in Madura. I do not feel that this is an old keris, there are too many tells that place it into the second half of the 20th century. However, from the early 20th century through to at least the 1990's there were a few not particularly prolific craftsmen in Jogja and across to the east who were doing similar work to this. As far as I know the last of these men passed away about 20 to 25 years ago. If this hilt is brass, either cast or fabricated, yes, it certainly does belong on a stok komando, probably not a walking stick, it is for display only, not for any kind of practical use. As I said, it would be easy to form a firm opinion based upon these photos, but in the absence the item itself, in the hand, it could be very difficult indeed to provide a supportable opinion. This is the reason that I used the word "feeling".

13th June 2021, 10:28 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,989	Jean, there are too many contradictions in this keris for me to give a supportable opinion. The hilt definitely has nothing at all to do with keris. It just does not belong. The cloth & resin to attach to the tang sounds to me as if the hilt is full of jabung, which would be expected & normal, and the cloth was used to give the pressure fit. Stylistically I cannot place it. The trifolate inclusions in the greneng are not something that is at all usual in any recognised classification. The traces of working method that can be seen in the blade are not indicative of any great age. The overall impression for me is East Jawa, but I'm not going to give this as any sort of classification opinion. If I were able to handle it and feel the surface and the perceived weight (tanting), I might be able to give a supportable opinion, from a photograph I cannot. Here is my unsupportable guess:- less than 100 years old, East Jawa. Oh yeah, one other thing, from the side view, the sirah cecak looks short and rounded, if that is so it I'd like to move my guess either onto the North Coast or even back to Jogja. All guesses.

23rd June 2021, 04:54 PM	#7
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Thank you Alan and sorry for the late reply, we were travelling in France after this so looooong interruption due to the Covid pandemic... Having the kris in my hands and in spite of the odd hilt, I tend to believe that it has some age, definitely not a kamardikan kris and I would estimate at least 100 years old. As to the provenance, I have no clue except that it does not look to be from Central Java. I had Banjarmasin in mind originally because of the cast brass hilt but this is not a sufficient indicator. My Solonese friend seems to be convinced that it originates from (South?) Sumatra and is contemporary with the Javanese Mataram period? I find it a very interesting naga kris anyway. Regards