Any ideas on the origin?

Ian · 31st May 2006, 05:15 AM

Thanks Zel.

I appreciate the difficulty of keeping ones ideas clear and up to date, especially when the subject is complex and imprecise.

The purpose of my recent post was not so much about nomenclature, although that certainly is an interesting and confusing field, but on changes in styles over time and how to date Visayan weapons to a certain period. In the piece you wrote three years ago, you talked about changing styles and how these might help in dating a particular weapon. That sounded very useful information and I have carried it with me as I've looked at various pieces from the Western Visayas.

The information that you provided was quite specific and will get you quoted, and once out there it will continue to be quoted. The best we can hope for is that we are quoted accurately. Which brings me to the query I posted for you. Am I still quoting you accurately, based on what you said in 2003, or is it necessary to update or amend some of the information that you posted previously (within the bounds of confidentiality that you mentioned)? If it's, say, 80% correct, what is the 20% that's no longer accurate?

Regards,

Ian.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zelbone

Hello Ian,

What I have said in the past (such as in that old thread that you quoted) is still quite true. However, that was 3 years ago. And since then, much has been learned. I've handled hundreds of Visayan swords, I've traveled to the Visayas, I've sought old pandays (both woodcarvers and smiths), and searched for real swordsmen. It wasn't an easy journey and the dialect differences made it even more so. Every questioned answered brought more questions. And as an "outsider," I was dealt with great suspicion. I've been threatened, challenged to test my sword skills, and tested for my knowledge so far. Though I've gained a wealth of knowledge, there are still questions that need to be answered...more so esoteric than general.

If I seem "cryptic" or hesitant to post any further information or updates, I have my reasons. For one thing, the Visayas is a broad region with different dialects. Two words can mean the same thing....and one word can mean several things. And another thing is that I don't want to be quoted like Cato having everything I say assumed as the definate answer. Anyone who's really studied the Visayan sword (or Moro swords for that reason) knows that there are no definate answers. Furthermore, the information I've learned could be quite esoteric and confusing for those that want definate answers. Ask anyone that came to our recent gathering....like Mabagani or Spunger...and they'll tell you that they learned quite a bit, but left even more confused. I'm still trying to piece together the jigsaw puzzle. And some of that information I received IS priviledged information sworn to secrecy to those that gave it to me. It would be dishonorable for me to post that information on a public forum. I hope you can understand.

....sometimes "it's a sundang" is the best and safest answer.

zelbone · 1st June 2006, 08:00 AM

Ian,

What I posted in 2003 for the most part holds true today, but only for a particular class of deity-hilt sundang from a particular region. The only addendum I would contribute now concerns the scabbard. The hanger-block evolution mentioned in that post is true for a certain sword. However, in other regions the hanger block is still used and made today. This helps identify the point of origin, not age. But there are probably a dozen or so aspects besides the hanger block on the scabbard alone to help determine point of origin and just as many aspects to help determine age...mostly aesthetic and some quite esoteric.

Then you have the sword itself. The blade alone has more than a dozen characteristics to look at to help determine point of origin and age....that's the easy part. Adding the hilt adds more aspects to investigate. There are probably over two dozen aesthetic and esoteric characteristics to look for in a deity-hilt or non-deity figural hilt pommel. And then you need to consider the rest of the hilt as well.

Once you look at every possible aspect of the whole sword, then it is possible to determine point of origin....sometimes as accurately within 20 km. The same holds true for age. But it's knowing what characteristics to look for and the region associated with those particular characteristics, that will help you identify the sundang, the point of origin, age, etc. Unfortunately, most of that information I'm bounded by confidentiality.

BSMStar · 2nd June 2006, 07:25 PM

I think understand where Zelbone is coming from.

We have to keep in mind that we are talking about cultural and ethnic traditions and beliefs. This is a sensitive area. A sword is not just a sword… as it is thought of in a western mind set, just steel, wood and some interesting designs. There is more to it. There are values, traditions, beliefs and (dare I use the words) integral secrets that are inherent to these wonderful edged weapons… making the study of these objects a bit difficult and slow going (for us outsiders). Knowledge and trust has to be earned, it is time consuming and worth the effort. The unfortunate side effect is, you can not always share what you now know. To share is to break a trust, and to lose an invaluable resource. But more importantly, it means that you will lose a valued friend (truly, this is greatest lost of all).

I have seen these debates in the past, when we end up with generic names like Sundang. Sometimes it because the melding of hundreds of years, names for swords become a bit blurred (one group’s Sundang is another groups Tenegre). Honestly, you can not just give it one label and be 100% correct all of the time. On the other hand, sometimes the question “how do you know that it is…” can cross in to the cultural and ethnic sensitive areas. It is like being caught between the rock and the hard spot. For me, I always try to honor other people’s cultural and ethnic traditions and beliefs. I may not always understand them, but I do my best to honor them. I believe I do understand where Zelbone is coming from, and for me, I respect his position.

VANDOO · 2nd June 2006, 08:39 PM

PERHAPS WE SHOULD GIVE UP ON ASSIGNING A NAME FOR SOME SWORDS AND JUST GO FOR ORIGIN, AGE, TYPE AND FUNCTION.

I ORIGINALLY THOUGHT A SUDANG WAS A CERTIAN TYPE OF MORO KRIS BUT JUDGING FROM ITS WIDE USE AND WHO AND WHERE YOU ASK, ITS ABOUT THE SAME AS PARANG IT MEANS KNIFE, SWORD OR SHARP POINTY THING BE IT TOOL OR WEAPON.

PERHAPS FOR INSTANCE
PHILIPPINE VISAYAN TYPE A , BEVELED SINGLE EDGED BLADE WITH DEEP BELLY AND SHARP POINT WITH CARVED HORN HANDLE, POSSIBLY NAGA FORM, AND HORN GAURD. WOOD SCABBARD WITH CARVED BLOCK FOR CARRING CORD, FASTENED WITH RATTAN BANDS. KNIFE PRIMARY USE AS TOOL SECONDARY USE AS WEAPON. ABOVE AVERAGE CARVED DECORATION .APPROX LATE 1890'S TO EARLY 1930'S

FUNNY IT OFTEN GETS MORE COMPLICATED AND CONFUSING THE MORE YOU LEARN

1st June 2006, 08:00 AM	#2
zelbone Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: VISAYAS and MINDANAO Posts: 169	Ian, What I posted in 2003 for the most part holds true today, but only for a particular class of deity-hilt sundang from a particular region. The only addendum I would contribute now concerns the scabbard. The hanger-block evolution mentioned in that post is true for a certain sword. However, in other regions the hanger block is still used and made today. This helps identify the point of origin, not age. But there are probably a dozen or so aspects besides the hanger block on the scabbard alone to help determine point of origin and just as many aspects to help determine age...mostly aesthetic and some quite esoteric. Then you have the sword itself. The blade alone has more than a dozen characteristics to look at to help determine point of origin and age....that's the easy part. Adding the hilt adds more aspects to investigate. There are probably over two dozen aesthetic and esoteric characteristics to look for in a deity-hilt or non-deity figural hilt pommel. And then you need to consider the rest of the hilt as well. Once you look at every possible aspect of the whole sword, then it is possible to determine point of origin....sometimes as accurately within 20 km. The same holds true for age. But it's knowing what characteristics to look for and the region associated with those particular characteristics, that will help you identify the sundang, the point of origin, age, etc. Unfortunately, most of that information I'm bounded by confidentiality.

2nd June 2006, 07:25 PM	#3
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	I think understand where Zelbone is coming from. We have to keep in mind that we are talking about cultural and ethnic traditions and beliefs. This is a sensitive area. A sword is not just a sword… as it is thought of in a western mind set, just steel, wood and some interesting designs. There is more to it. There are values, traditions, beliefs and (dare I use the words) integral secrets that are inherent to these wonderful edged weapons… making the study of these objects a bit difficult and slow going (for us outsiders). Knowledge and trust has to be earned, it is time consuming and worth the effort. The unfortunate side effect is, you can not always share what you now know. To share is to break a trust, and to lose an invaluable resource. But more importantly, it means that you will lose a valued friend (truly, this is greatest lost of all). I have seen these debates in the past, when we end up with generic names like Sundang. Sometimes it because the melding of hundreds of years, names for swords become a bit blurred (one group’s Sundang is another groups Tenegre). Honestly, you can not just give it one label and be 100% correct all of the time. On the other hand, sometimes the question “how do you know that it is…” can cross in to the cultural and ethnic sensitive areas. It is like being caught between the rock and the hard spot. For me, I always try to honor other people’s cultural and ethnic traditions and beliefs. I may not always understand them, but I do my best to honor them. I believe I do understand where Zelbone is coming from, and for me, I respect his position.

2nd June 2006, 08:39 PM	#4
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	PERHAPS WE SHOULD GIVE UP ON ASSIGNING A NAME FOR SOME SWORDS AND JUST GO FOR ORIGIN, AGE, TYPE AND FUNCTION. I ORIGINALLY THOUGHT A SUDANG WAS A CERTIAN TYPE OF MORO KRIS BUT JUDGING FROM ITS WIDE USE AND WHO AND WHERE YOU ASK, ITS ABOUT THE SAME AS PARANG IT MEANS KNIFE, SWORD OR SHARP POINTY THING BE IT TOOL OR WEAPON. PERHAPS FOR INSTANCE PHILIPPINE VISAYAN TYPE A , BEVELED SINGLE EDGED BLADE WITH DEEP BELLY AND SHARP POINT WITH CARVED HORN HANDLE, POSSIBLY NAGA FORM, AND HORN GAURD. WOOD SCABBARD WITH CARVED BLOCK FOR CARRING CORD, FASTENED WITH RATTAN BANDS. KNIFE PRIMARY USE AS TOOL SECONDARY USE AS WEAPON. ABOVE AVERAGE CARVED DECORATION .APPROX LATE 1890'S TO EARLY 1930'S FUNNY IT OFTEN GETS MORE COMPLICATED AND CONFUSING THE MORE YOU LEARN