Jian Sword Buddha

JoeCanada42 · 17th April 2021, 03:10 AM

more photos 4

JoeCanada42 · 17th April 2021, 03:11 AM

last of photos

DavidFriedman · 17th April 2021, 04:08 AM

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the form and design is consistent with modern made pieces flooding out of China the last 20 years. They are very good at making recent versions look 100-200 years old, but they typically throw in designs that were just not commonly found. Kind of like making a modern fantasy sword design look old by aging it with chemicals etc.

I bought 2 similarish ones 20years ago for $500 each. The cost of the study.

ausjulius · 17th April 2021, 05:03 AM

hll. sad to say it is a very recently made crude chinese fake.

Ian · 17th April 2021, 07:57 AM

Hi Joe,

Possibly made in southern Yunnan where there are ethnic minorities following Buddhism.

Ian.

Jim McDougall · 17th April 2021, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Hi Joe,

Possibly made in southern Yunnan where there are ethnic minorities following Buddhism.

Ian.

Hi Ian,
That is interesting, would the Buddhist minority in Yunnan regions be due to other religion dominating, Islam? I am only guessing because of news activity of late regarding Uighers etc.

Jim

JoeCanada42 · 17th April 2021, 05:28 PM

Thanks for stepping in Jim, I was just about to say the same.

Thanks Ian I did try looking for some examples of Yunnan "village Jian" swords earlier today and I will keep looking. I have not found any examples yet.

Ausjulius , what is very recent in your opinion? and if you could give me some reasons why you say this one is fake please?

I have seen many Jains sell recently and have some I believe interesting research and different Jian swords photos to share. I may be wrong but I do believe I see genuine age in the Jian I posted .

I will give some details about the sword. I got it from an American eBay vendor with good feedback who I don't believe sold such a sword before. I payed the second time 300$ Us, i did have to pay customs also and in Canadian dollars this was a bit expensive for me. Originally I purchased it buy it now for about 120+60 Us. it was confiscated by eBay global shipping program.
I then found it for sale with the known eBay liquidator. the Original seller was nice enough to buy it back and sell it to me the second time. all this took a lot of work and the sword went on quite an journey to get to me.
that being said the price I payed kind of defeats the point of making a fake.

the sword is 35 1/2 inch , the blade is little over 28 inch, the scabbard is a little over 31 inch. the sword in the scabbard is about 39 inch.

I don't know the weight yet, I have a photo of it balancing on the balance point.

I see one similar Jian, when I search for antique Jian, the guard is the same but without buddha, and the scabbard fittings are the same... although I cant post a photo of this similar sword currently, it also has a different more standard pommel and longer signed blade. but is the same color and very similar to mine, it is dated 19c.

On my sword I see the ray skin is shrunk, and the blade has rust under the guard, the guard is also lose, the blade is solid, all scabbard fittings are lose. there is many flaws in the metal work. most modern replicas are of better quality, I think this may be primitive work., the dragons on the blade and the faces on the pommel and the sitting buddhas on the guard all have discrepancies. the blade is a known blade shape and thickness, and is sharp with a few dings. i think the guard is Tibetan shape, the handle is large enough for two hands.

the blade definitely feels real, I also looked for about a month and can not find any other Jian with buddha elements at all.

Gonzoadler · 17th April 2021, 06:00 PM

Hello,

I'm a bit sceptical regarding the age, too. For comparison I show my chinese Jian-style double dagger, made around 1900. The blades are relatively simple but the blade of the showed sword is not the part I have a real problem with. The ray skin looks a bit strange to me, it could be an imitation. The quality of the bronze mountings is also not very good.
Original swords of this type or pieces like my double dagger were probably only "touristic" pieces for the colonialists in there time, so the quality claims were not the same like for an officer's or warrior's sword. But the showed sword is under the quality I know from such antique "touristic" pieces.

Regards
Robin

Ren Ren · 17th April 2021, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

That is interesting, would the Buddhist minority in Yunnan regions be due to other religion dominating, Islam?

In China and in Yunnan province in particular, Buddhism is not a minority religion. But most Chinese people follow Amidaism. The Thai and Burmese peoples inhabiting Yunnan adhere to a different direction - Theravada. This is the main direction of Buddhism in the countries of Southeast Asia. It came from South India in the 5-6th centuries AD.

P.S. The details of JoeCanada42 sword do bear some resemblance to the Theravada Buddhist depictions.

DavidFriedman · 18th April 2021, 12:13 AM

To me, the dragon engraving on the blade is not consistent with blades that I’ve seen. A lot of the recent reproductions went crazy with Mulan looking dragons on the blades, and Wild engravings of characters.

The casting of the fittings to me is crude, in my opinion, if a sword were to have such ornamentation, the pierce work would be exceptionally refined. Why go to such lengths to make a fancy jian, but only make rough work with the fittings.

The patina on the fittings seems off to me too.

The patina and appearance of the rayskin/sharkskin looks off.

I’m no expert in original pieces, but I have observed a huge amount of modern reproductions over the last 20 years. Mostly by photo.

I would wonder if a sword was real, then click on the buyers page and see what else they had. Only to see insanely grotesque caricatures of Chinese weapons.

In my opinion, if the workmanship is crude, then it will be crude throughout. So if having fancy Buddhist icons on it, it would be done impeccably, if at all. Crude pieces that are original are crude from head to toe. A refined sword would have no telltale signs of crudity, unless damage, or parts replaced.

That’s my take. I’m no expert, and I go by feeling still, until I become more astute at identifying the tell tale signs of modern fabrications.

Ian · 18th April 2021, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Ian,
That is interesting, would the Buddhist minority in Yunnan regions be due to other religion dominating, Islam? I am only guessing because of news activity of late regarding Uighers etc.

Jim

Hi Jim,

When using the term "ethnic minority" I mean it in the sense of the Chinese census classification, which is conducted nationwide. "Ethnic minorities" are, by definition, not considered Chinese ethnically and in toto make up a minority of the overall population in China. That said, there are areas of the country where ethnic minorities exceed the number of ethnic Chinese. Southern Yunnan is one area where Buddhist ethnic minorities comprise the majority of the population. Buddhism is therefore the most prevalent religion in that part of China. Ren-Ren was alluding to this in his reply.

Cheers,

Ian.

JoeCanada42 · 18th April 2021, 04:16 PM

I did research Jian swords on this forum, and I did look at many modern replicas/creations. I figured my sword was prolly circa 1900, and given its unique handle I figured it wasn't intended for the colonial tourists and might be of good quality. for the original price I payed it didn't matter if it was just an old wall hanger. the second time I bough it it was more a issue of personal satisfaction. I though It would easily prove to be old... . the thought of it being bogus is a bit disappointing. I still think the reason it was made may be for personal use ,not sale, Maybe a Tai chi practitioner who liked buddha.
I have an affinity for the buddha . Its hanging on my wall like a good luck talisman. maybe that was its purpose seems like that's why some of them were made.
I did research Theravada Buddhism briefly and I Find it more appealing then Mahayana . But I did spend more time and had more fun researching Manjushri a bodhisattva in Mahayana Buddhism, He is depicted with a sword and a book. he is a primary interlocutor with Buddha.

how about the blade of my sword? looks like its got a good distal taper, and everything else looks good to me.

Jim McDougall · 18th April 2021, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Hi Jim,

When using the term "ethnic minority" I mean it in the sense of the Chinese census classification, which is conducted nationwide. "Ethnic minorities" are, by definition, not considered Chinese ethnically and in toto make up a minority of the overall population in China. That said, there are areas of the country where ethnic minorities exceed the number of ethnic Chinese. Southern Yunnan is one area where Buddhist ethnic minorities comprise the majority of the population. Buddhism is therefore the most prevalent religion in that part of China. Ren-Ren was alluding to this in his reply.

Cheers,

Ian.

Ian, thank you for this excellent response, and Ren Ren as well ! I really appreciate this detailed explanation as the ethnic and religious diversity in the vast Chinese sphere is very diverse. For those, like myself, who have mostly a lay knowledge of these areas on Chinese history and anthropology it really helps.

Best
Jim

Jim McDougall · 17th April 2021, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ausjulius

hll. sad to say it is a very recently made crude chinese fake.

Ouch! Thats pretty direct. As I do not claim any particular experience with Chinese weaponry, but find the topic extremely interesting, I wonder if you might detail a bit on how that evaluation is determined.

Is this jian based on a specific form from which it is copied? or is it a composite of various elements?

It would be great to see 'authentic' examples of this, which are fully substantiated, in comparison, perhaps you might include one?

17th April 2021, 03:10 AM	#1
JoeCanada42 Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Canada Posts: 259	more photos 4 Attached Images

17th April 2021, 03:11 AM	#2
JoeCanada42 Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Canada Posts: 259	last of photos Attached Images

17th April 2021, 04:08 AM	#3
DavidFriedman Member Join Date: Feb 2021 Posts: 113	Bearer I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the form and design is consistent with modern made pieces flooding out of China the last 20 years. They are very good at making recent versions look 100-200 years old, but they typically throw in designs that were just not commonly found. Kind of like making a modern fantasy sword design look old by aging it with chemicals etc. I bought 2 similarish ones 20years ago for $500 each. The cost of the study.

17th April 2021, 06:00 PM	#8
Gonzoadler Member Join Date: Jun 2020 Location: Germany Posts: 273	Hello, I'm a bit sceptical regarding the age, too. For comparison I show my chinese Jian-style double dagger, made around 1900. The blades are relatively simple but the blade of the showed sword is not the part I have a real problem with. The ray skin looks a bit strange to me, it could be an imitation. The quality of the bronze mountings is also not very good. Original swords of this type or pieces like my double dagger were probably only "touristic" pieces for the colonialists in there time, so the quality claims were not the same like for an officer's or warrior's sword. But the showed sword is under the quality I know from such antique "touristic" pieces. Regards Robin Attached Images

17th April 2021, 05:03 AM	#4
ausjulius Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: musorian territory Posts: 459	hll. sad to say it is a very recently made crude chinese fake.

17th April 2021, 07:57 AM	#5
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,469	Hi Joe, Possibly made in southern Yunnan where there are ethnic minorities following Buddhism. Ian.

17th April 2021, 05:28 PM	#7
JoeCanada42 Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Canada Posts: 259	Thanks for stepping in Jim, I was just about to say the same. Thanks Ian I did try looking for some examples of Yunnan "village Jian" swords earlier today and I will keep looking. I have not found any examples yet. Ausjulius , what is very recent in your opinion? and if you could give me some reasons why you say this one is fake please? I have seen many Jains sell recently and have some I believe interesting research and different Jian swords photos to share. I may be wrong but I do believe I see genuine age in the Jian I posted . I will give some details about the sword. I got it from an American eBay vendor with good feedback who I don't believe sold such a sword before. I payed the second time 300$ Us, i did have to pay customs also and in Canadian dollars this was a bit expensive for me. Originally I purchased it buy it now for about 120+60 Us. it was confiscated by eBay global shipping program. I then found it for sale with the known eBay liquidator. the Original seller was nice enough to buy it back and sell it to me the second time. all this took a lot of work and the sword went on quite an journey to get to me. that being said the price I payed kind of defeats the point of making a fake. the sword is 35 1/2 inch , the blade is little over 28 inch, the scabbard is a little over 31 inch. the sword in the scabbard is about 39 inch. I don't know the weight yet, I have a photo of it balancing on the balance point. I see one similar Jian, when I search for antique Jian, the guard is the same but without buddha, and the scabbard fittings are the same... although I cant post a photo of this similar sword currently, it also has a different more standard pommel and longer signed blade. but is the same color and very similar to mine, it is dated 19c. On my sword I see the ray skin is shrunk, and the blade has rust under the guard, the guard is also lose, the blade is solid, all scabbard fittings are lose. there is many flaws in the metal work. most modern replicas are of better quality, I think this may be primitive work., the dragons on the blade and the faces on the pommel and the sitting buddhas on the guard all have discrepancies. the blade is a known blade shape and thickness, and is sharp with a few dings. i think the guard is Tibetan shape, the handle is large enough for two hands. the blade definitely feels real, I also looked for about a month and can not find any other Jian with buddha elements at all.

18th April 2021, 12:13 AM	#10
DavidFriedman Member Join Date: Feb 2021 Posts: 113	To me, the dragon engraving on the blade is not consistent with blades that I’ve seen. A lot of the recent reproductions went crazy with Mulan looking dragons on the blades, and Wild engravings of characters. The casting of the fittings to me is crude, in my opinion, if a sword were to have such ornamentation, the pierce work would be exceptionally refined. Why go to such lengths to make a fancy jian, but only make rough work with the fittings. The patina on the fittings seems off to me too. The patina and appearance of the rayskin/sharkskin looks off. I’m no expert in original pieces, but I have observed a huge amount of modern reproductions over the last 20 years. Mostly by photo. I would wonder if a sword was real, then click on the buyers page and see what else they had. Only to see insanely grotesque caricatures of Chinese weapons. In my opinion, if the workmanship is crude, then it will be crude throughout. So if having fancy Buddhist icons on it, it would be done impeccably, if at all. Crude pieces that are original are crude from head to toe. A refined sword would have no telltale signs of crudity, unless damage, or parts replaced. That’s my take. I’m no expert, and I go by feeling still, until I become more astute at identifying the tell tale signs of modern fabrications.

18th April 2021, 04:16 PM	#12
JoeCanada42 Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Canada Posts: 259	I did research Jian swords on this forum, and I did look at many modern replicas/creations. I figured my sword was prolly circa 1900, and given its unique handle I figured it wasn't intended for the colonial tourists and might be of good quality. for the original price I payed it didn't matter if it was just an old wall hanger. the second time I bough it it was more a issue of personal satisfaction. I though It would easily prove to be old... . the thought of it being bogus is a bit disappointing. I still think the reason it was made may be for personal use ,not sale, Maybe a Tai chi practitioner who liked buddha. I have an affinity for the buddha . Its hanging on my wall like a good luck talisman. maybe that was its purpose seems like that's why some of them were made. I did research Theravada Buddhism briefly and I Find it more appealing then Mahayana . But I did spend more time and had more fun researching Manjushri a bodhisattva in Mahayana Buddhism, He is depicted with a sword and a book. he is a primary interlocutor with Buddha. how about the blade of my sword? looks like its got a good distal taper, and everything else looks good to me.