Bugis Keris

Jean · 4th April 2021, 06:39 PM

Very interesting Gustav, thanks! We can clearly see the differences with the East Sumatran hilts.

David · 4th April 2021, 08:29 PM

Thanks Gustav for posting all these fine examples of Pipit Teleng hilts. To be clear, while i did not respond to your first post on this thread, i most certainly saw it. Forgive me for not responded, but by the time you had posted i had already come to most of the conclusions you were making and then became distracted from other posts and questions.
I agree that your use of the word "bulging" to describe the eyes of most Pipit Teleng is a bit misplaced. But i would even refrain from using the term "protruding". The eyes are indeed raised a bit from the surface in many of your examples, but they don't jump out at you as i would expect something described as bulging or even protruding would. They are simply delineated is a relief manner.
I do think it strange that you seem to be so dismissive of this keris because it is not the perfected Pipit Teleng form you seem to so admire. For me that is part of its charm and frankly i would take my hilt over any of the other Pipit Teleng hilts you have chosen to show here. It has a spirit and personality that the others lack for me. Truth be told, i actually don't generally like the Pipit Teleng form. To my eye it usually comes off as awkward and uncomfortable and yes, stiff. But i do quite enjoy mine. And i am sure that there are indeed many more awesome examples of these hilts from this "experimental" time period, but you have not shown any of those examples here so i would still hope that someone can present another hilt that i can truly compare with this one. I am not looking for the perfect example of the Pipit Teleng form as you seem to be, so the ways in which mine does not fulfill this ideal are really unimportant to me. If this hilt is "unconvincing" to you it doesn't really matter. And no, i don't think this hilt looks the way it does because of a carver's error or his inability to work well with ivory. I think it simply is what it is. So i would still like to see other hilts like it, because i don't believe anything you have posted compares well with it, especially when it comes to the spiral eyes and floral motifs it presents.

Gustav · 4th April 2021, 08:44 PM

David, it seems I failed to express myself again, my apologies.

For the last time - your hilt surely is unique, one of a kind, from a time period, where many unique, one of a kind hilts were made, in different forms, mixing different forms together, embellishing different forms with carvings not previously seen with these forms.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

David · 4th April 2021, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

David, it seems I failed to express myself again, my apologies.

For the last time - your hilt surely is unique, one of a kind, from a time period, where many unique, one of a kind hilts were made, in different forms, mixing different forms together, embellishing different forms with carvings not previously seen with these forms.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Maybe it is i who has failed to express myself Gustav.
Just about all figurative hilts are unique and one of a kind. I am aware that there was indeed a particular "experimental" period when these kinds of hilts were made. I would like to see others to compare the kinds of embellishments this period produced with this particular hilt form.
And yes, indeed beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Gustav · 4th April 2021, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Maybe it is i who has failed to express myself Gustav.
Just about all figurative hilts are unique and one of a kind. I am aware that there was indeed a particular "experimental" period when these kinds of hilts were made. I would like to see others to compare the kinds of embellishments this period produced with this particular hilt form.
And yes, indeed beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

I didn't notice I was speaking about all figurative hilts - that's a bit to much to handle, even for the little old me.
As I have no particular interest in this kind of esthetics from that period, maybe some other person more knowledgeable as myself could take up the job here from this point on.

Just one last remark, not related to the hilt issue - judging from pictures it seems there could be a whiff of a possibility the blade and sheath are a later marriage.

David · 5th April 2021, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

I didn't notice I was speaking about all figurative hilts - that's a bit to much to handle, even for the little old me.
As I have no particular interest in this kind of esthetics from that period, maybe some other person more knowledgeable as myself could take up the job here from this point on.

Just one last remark, not related to the hilt issue - judging from pictures it seems there could be a whiff of a possibility the blade and sheath are a later marriage.

Gustav, my remark was in regards to your acknowledgement that my hilt was indeed "unique" and "one of a kind". I was not asking you to speak about all figurative hilt, only pointing out the obvious that for the most part they all tend to be one of a kind by their very nature.
You seem to have spent a great deal of time posting about a keris hilt that you have no particular interest in. LOL! I don't believe anyone was twisting your arm to contribute any information here. As you have pointed out, i didn't even respond to your first post. Nor have you been asked at anytime to "take up the job" of being the sole supplier of information on my keris. You have made it clear that you don't particularly care for it. That's fine. Again, as you yourself pointed out, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I really don't take that personally, but it is curious that even up to your very last note you seem to want to dismiss the integrity of this keris that myself and many others both on this site as well as two others i have posted it on seem to very much appreciate. To alleviate your suspicions i can tell you that i am 100% sure the sheath was made specifically for this blade.

Gustav · 5th April 2021, 09:39 PM

Thank you David, for confirming you are 100% sure the sheath was made specifically for this blade.

My mind is at ease now.

4th April 2021, 06:39 PM	#1
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Very interesting Gustav, thanks! We can clearly see the differences with the East Sumatran hilts. Last edited by Jean; 4th April 2021 at 06:54 PM.

4th April 2021, 08:29 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Thanks Gustav for posting all these fine examples of Pipit Teleng hilts. To be clear, while i did not respond to your first post on this thread, i most certainly saw it. Forgive me for not responded, but by the time you had posted i had already come to most of the conclusions you were making and then became distracted from other posts and questions. I agree that your use of the word "bulging" to describe the eyes of most Pipit Teleng is a bit misplaced. But i would even refrain from using the term "protruding". The eyes are indeed raised a bit from the surface in many of your examples, but they don't jump out at you as i would expect something described as bulging or even protruding would. They are simply delineated is a relief manner. I do think it strange that you seem to be so dismissive of this keris because it is not the perfected Pipit Teleng form you seem to so admire. For me that is part of its charm and frankly i would take my hilt over any of the other Pipit Teleng hilts you have chosen to show here. It has a spirit and personality that the others lack for me. Truth be told, i actually don't generally like the Pipit Teleng form. To my eye it usually comes off as awkward and uncomfortable and yes, stiff. But i do quite enjoy mine. And i am sure that there are indeed many more awesome examples of these hilts from this "experimental" time period, but you have not shown any of those examples here so i would still hope that someone can present another hilt that i can truly compare with this one. I am not looking for the perfect example of the Pipit Teleng form as you seem to be, so the ways in which mine does not fulfill this ideal are really unimportant to me. If this hilt is "unconvincing" to you it doesn't really matter. And no, i don't think this hilt looks the way it does because of a carver's error or his inability to work well with ivory. I think it simply is what it is. So i would still like to see other hilts like it, because i don't believe anything you have posted compares well with it, especially when it comes to the spiral eyes and floral motifs it presents.

4th April 2021, 08:44 PM	#3
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	David, it seems I failed to express myself again, my apologies. For the last time - your hilt surely is unique, one of a kind, from a time period, where many unique, one of a kind hilts were made, in different forms, mixing different forms together, embellishing different forms with carvings not previously seen with these forms. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

5th April 2021, 09:39 PM	#7
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	Thank you David, for confirming you are 100% sure the sheath was made specifically for this blade. My mind is at ease now.