Authenticity Of Keris

Rick · 27th January 2005, 02:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prime

martho suwignyo,
Many forumite would agree with you (i guess).
It had been iterated by some esteem members (eg. nechesh) earlier, that physically assessment of the item is best. But in this forum, it is not possible.

I would submit that in 'any' online forum 'it is not possible' .

So where does this revelation leave us ?

nechesh · 27th January 2005, 04:04 AM

Yes Rick, where does this "revelation" leave us? Well, if understood, and taken to heart, we can begin by not getting caught up in the nonsense that often passes as expertise around here, where self-proclaimed "experts" with absolutely no credentials or reputations pop up out of thin air and pass judgement suspicious or spurious keris.

There is so much we can talk about when it comes to keris without dealing with the business of authenticating weapons from inadequate photographs. We would also find ourselves less susceptible to charlatans and unscrupuluous dealers who would use this forum as a staging point to sell forgeries to a manipulated audience.
Not that i am implying that this has necessarily been the case in this thread.

Thank you Marto, for (hopefully) finally making clear what i have been trying to say for a very long time.

Alam Shah · 27th January 2005, 04:26 AM

Rick,
That would leave us at:

(in general) pictures used to get a visual opinion 'first impression' of the item, although it should not be conclusive. (in my opinion, only).

Can be used to identify the dapur, pamor ...etc, though. As far as authenticity...it is difficult.

> it is not possible to gain any idea at all of weight and the distribution of that
> weight, unless the keris is handled. Texture of the material can only be
> guessed at.

Again, all this is my opinion only, (except for the arrowed text, it's marto's).

Rick · 27th January 2005, 05:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prime

Rick,
That would leave us at:

(in general) pictures used to get a visual opinion 'first impression' of the item, although it should not be conclusive. (in my opinion, only).

Can be used to identify the dapur, pamor ...etc, though. As far as authenticity...it is difficult.

> it is not possible to gain any idea at all of weight and the distribution of that
> weight, unless the keris is handled. Texture of the material can only be
> guessed at.

Again, all this is my opinion only, (except for the arrowed text, it's marto's).

Well that leaves us with endless possibilities , doesn't it ?

Everything presented is real .
Everything presented is a fake .

If no one can tell why should we even bother discussing keris at all ?

After all we all can't fondle every piece that is presented for discussion can we ?

Sad to know we've been wasting our time .

Alam Shah · 27th January 2005, 11:29 AM

Don't be sad, Rick, What i mean is, of course there are things to talk about.
As mentioned by nechesh, below; my exact sentiments...

> There is so much we can talk about when it comes to keris without dealing
> with the business of authenticating weapons from inadequate photographs.
> We would also find ourselves less susceptible to charlatans and
> unscrupuluous dealers who would use this forum as a staging point to sell
> forgeries to a manipulated audience.
> Not that i am implying that this has necessarily been the case in this
> thread.

I, for one, would like to see pictures of nice pieces. I do appreciate the beauty of clear picture pieces, whether there old or new keris.
As for authenticating pieces...er...who am i to judge? I can give opinions, but it will be my own...and not to be taken as assessment of the piece.

I hope this clears up matters. I would like it see this forum as a cool (dispute-free) place to express own opinion of presented pieces.

Therefore, I'm sorry if i hurt your feelings...

nechesh · 27th January 2005, 12:56 PM

Hi Rick. Don't be disheartened.

There really is a lot we can talk about without getting hung up on authenticity. And when i say hung up i am implying that we can still talk about it. My concerns are seeing it as the end all supreme topic, when infact, it can't really be decided here and is only used as an opening for abusive use of the forum. People need to come to accept that if someone says a keris is definitely authentic (or not) based on a photograph alone that they probably don't know what they are talking about. For the most part, if the photos are good, we can still see quality of workmanship, dapur and pamor designs, etc. We can still discuss the ever evolving place of the keris in Indonesian society and it's place in history ( a subject solely under discussed and misunderstood). We can still say, i like, or i don't like.....or i think that's might be old, or not, because of this or that. But no, with out handling a piece, even the greatest expert would, at best, just be guessing most of the time on true authenticity.

27th January 2005, 04:04 AM	#2
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Yes Rick, where does this "revelation" leave us? Well, if understood, and taken to heart, we can begin by not getting caught up in the nonsense that often passes as expertise around here, where self-proclaimed "experts" with absolutely no credentials or reputations pop up out of thin air and pass judgement suspicious or spurious keris. There is so much we can talk about when it comes to keris without dealing with the business of authenticating weapons from inadequate photographs. We would also find ourselves less susceptible to charlatans and unscrupuluous dealers who would use this forum as a staging point to sell forgeries to a manipulated audience. Not that i am implying that this has necessarily been the case in this thread. Thank you Marto, for (hopefully) finally making clear what i have been trying to say for a very long time. Last edited by nechesh; 27th January 2005 at 12:34 PM.

27th January 2005, 04:26 AM	#3
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Rick, That would leave us at: (in general) pictures used to get a visual opinion 'first impression' of the item, although it should not be conclusive. (in my opinion, only). Can be used to identify the dapur, pamor ...etc, though. As far as authenticity...it is difficult. > it is not possible to gain any idea at all of weight and the distribution of that > weight, unless the keris is handled. Texture of the material can only be > guessed at. Again, all this is my opinion only, (except for the arrowed text, it's marto's).

27th January 2005, 11:29 AM	#5
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Don't be sad, Rick, What i mean is, of course there are things to talk about. As mentioned by nechesh, below; my exact sentiments... > There is so much we can talk about when it comes to keris without dealing > with the business of authenticating weapons from inadequate photographs. > We would also find ourselves less susceptible to charlatans and > unscrupuluous dealers who would use this forum as a staging point to sell > forgeries to a manipulated audience. > Not that i am implying that this has necessarily been the case in this > thread. I, for one, would like to see pictures of nice pieces. I do appreciate the beauty of clear picture pieces, whether there old or new keris. As for authenticating pieces...er...who am i to judge? I can give opinions, but it will be my own...and not to be taken as assessment of the piece. I hope this clears up matters. I would like it see this forum as a cool (dispute-free) place to express own opinion of presented pieces. Therefore, I'm sorry if i hurt your feelings...

27th January 2005, 12:56 PM	#6
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Hi Rick. Don't be disheartened. There really is a lot we can talk about without getting hung up on authenticity. And when i say hung up i am implying that we can still talk about it. My concerns are seeing it as the end all supreme topic, when infact, it can't really be decided here and is only used as an opening for abusive use of the forum. People need to come to accept that if someone says a keris is definitely authentic (or not) based on a photograph alone that they probably don't know what they are talking about. For the most part, if the photos are good, we can still see quality of workmanship, dapur and pamor designs, etc. We can still discuss the ever evolving place of the keris in Indonesian society and it's place in history ( a subject solely under discussed and misunderstood). We can still say, i like, or i don't like.....or i think that's might be old, or not, because of this or that. But no, with out handling a piece, even the greatest expert would, at best, just be guessing most of the time on true authenticity.