Authenticity Of Keris

Alam Shah · 27th January 2005, 01:30 AM

martho suwignyo,
Many forumite would agree with you (i guess).
It had been iterated by some esteem members (eg. nechesh) earlier, that physically assessment of the item is best. But in this forum, it is not possible.

Therefore, (in general) pictures are used to get a visual opinion 'first impression' of the item, although it should not be conclusive. (in my opinion, only).

Rick · 27th January 2005, 01:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prime

martho suwignyo,
Many forumite would agree with you (i guess).
It had been iterated by some esteem members (eg. nechesh) earlier, that physically assessment of the item is best. But in this forum, it is not possible.

I would submit that in 'any' online forum 'it is not possible' .

So where does this revelation leave us ?

nechesh · 27th January 2005, 03:04 AM

Yes Rick, where does this "revelation" leave us? Well, if understood, and taken to heart, we can begin by not getting caught up in the nonsense that often passes as expertise around here, where self-proclaimed "experts" with absolutely no credentials or reputations pop up out of thin air and pass judgement suspicious or spurious keris.

There is so much we can talk about when it comes to keris without dealing with the business of authenticating weapons from inadequate photographs. We would also find ourselves less susceptible to charlatans and unscrupuluous dealers who would use this forum as a staging point to sell forgeries to a manipulated audience.
Not that i am implying that this has necessarily been the case in this thread.

Thank you Marto, for (hopefully) finally making clear what i have been trying to say for a very long time.

Alam Shah · 27th January 2005, 03:26 AM

Rick,
That would leave us at:

(in general) pictures used to get a visual opinion 'first impression' of the item, although it should not be conclusive. (in my opinion, only).

Can be used to identify the dapur, pamor ...etc, though. As far as authenticity...it is difficult.

> it is not possible to gain any idea at all of weight and the distribution of that
> weight, unless the keris is handled. Texture of the material can only be
> guessed at.

Again, all this is my opinion only, (except for the arrowed text, it's marto's).

Rick · 27th January 2005, 04:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prime

Rick,
That would leave us at:

(in general) pictures used to get a visual opinion 'first impression' of the item, although it should not be conclusive. (in my opinion, only).

Can be used to identify the dapur, pamor ...etc, though. As far as authenticity...it is difficult.

> it is not possible to gain any idea at all of weight and the distribution of that
> weight, unless the keris is handled. Texture of the material can only be
> guessed at.

Again, all this is my opinion only, (except for the arrowed text, it's marto's).

Well that leaves us with endless possibilities , doesn't it ?

Everything presented is real .
Everything presented is a fake .

If no one can tell why should we even bother discussing keris at all ?

After all we all can't fondle every piece that is presented for discussion can we ?

Sad to know we've been wasting our time .

Alam Shah · 27th January 2005, 10:29 AM

Don't be sad, Rick, What i mean is, of course there are things to talk about.
As mentioned by nechesh, below; my exact sentiments...

> There is so much we can talk about when it comes to keris without dealing
> with the business of authenticating weapons from inadequate photographs.
> We would also find ourselves less susceptible to charlatans and
> unscrupuluous dealers who would use this forum as a staging point to sell
> forgeries to a manipulated audience.
> Not that i am implying that this has necessarily been the case in this
> thread.

I, for one, would like to see pictures of nice pieces. I do appreciate the beauty of clear picture pieces, whether there old or new keris.
As for authenticating pieces...er...who am i to judge? I can give opinions, but it will be my own...and not to be taken as assessment of the piece.

I hope this clears up matters. I would like it see this forum as a cool (dispute-free) place to express own opinion of presented pieces.

Therefore, I'm sorry if i hurt your feelings...

nechesh · 27th January 2005, 11:56 AM

Hi Rick. Don't be disheartened.

There really is a lot we can talk about without getting hung up on authenticity. And when i say hung up i am implying that we can still talk about it. My concerns are seeing it as the end all supreme topic, when infact, it can't really be decided here and is only used as an opening for abusive use of the forum. People need to come to accept that if someone says a keris is definitely authentic (or not) based on a photograph alone that they probably don't know what they are talking about. For the most part, if the photos are good, we can still see quality of workmanship, dapur and pamor designs, etc. We can still discuss the ever evolving place of the keris in Indonesian society and it's place in history ( a subject solely under discussed and misunderstood). We can still say, i like, or i don't like.....or i think that's might be old, or not, because of this or that. But no, with out handling a piece, even the greatest expert would, at best, just be guessing most of the time on true authenticity.

Sepang · 27th January 2005, 12:52 PM

I agree with Marto Suwognyo and any body comments in this thread, but I think, by photos, we can learn more about pasikutan, the iron and pamor, and other ricikan of kerisses. So, we can discus about that and know more which keris are fake or real. Specifically if we need to buy online some piece.

Nechesh, sorry, I was error try to open the link. I mean the Jalak Budho is a putran. Look closer at pijetan or tikel alis, the curve is so sharp. If the keris is old, the curve in pijetan, sogokan and tikel alis is smooth and flexible. I just try give my opinion. TQ

DAHenkel · 27th January 2005, 01:25 PM

Everyone knows you can tell a lot more about a keris (or anything else for that matter) by handling it in person. That said, if you show me a picture of a '78 Pinto, I don't need to kick the tires and take it for a test drive to tell you its a piece of crap car.

Sepang · 27th January 2005, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAHenkel

...... if you show me a picture of a '78 Pinto, I don't need to kick the tires and take it for a test drive to tell you its a piece of crap car.

Weah, I need to see a picture of a "78 Pinto" too if you don't mind...
What it is ? Kriss or sword or..... ?
I just have photos of my kerisses, but "78 Pinto", I realy just hear now.

Did U have it ?

BluErf · 27th January 2005, 03:16 PM

Apparently, there are aficionados of the '78 Pintos...

http://www3.sympatico.ca/guinnessd/pinto/pintos/

And there's one with Dave's name on it...

Rick · 27th January 2005, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

Apparently, there are aficionados of the '78 Pintos...

http://www3.sympatico.ca/guinnessd/pinto/pintos/

And there's one with Dave's name on it...

Aficionados of self immolation perhaps .

http://www.fordpinto.com/blowup3.htm

Alam Shah · 27th January 2005, 03:25 PM

Sepang,

Nice exquisite beautiful kerises.

BluErf · 27th January 2005, 03:45 PM

Just wondering, did Ford pay these guys to put up these 'fansites' for pintos...

nechesh · 27th January 2005, 09:29 PM

Com'n guys, who would want a Pinto when they could own a '72 Gremlin?
http://www.wkdwich.com/gremlin5.htm
Now that's a car!

DhenTal · 31st January 2005, 07:06 AM

Nechesh, I think all of keris was posted in this thread like a new kriss which was modificated or not real damascan.
My Keris kriss is very fake. It more like a new kriss which low knowledge to make it.
Sepang kriss, although look like a nice piece, but I consider with damascan. It can be made by now. And it look so whole.
BluErf kriss, like a new kriss too, so that he don't post it with close up picture.

perhaps I can made mistake, so please forgive me

rasdan · 31st January 2005, 08:21 AM

Hi DenThal,

U can look at previous threads to see some of Blu's keris closeup pictures. He already posted the pictures previously, so i dont think posting it again will do much help.

Ria · 31st January 2005, 09:26 AM

Hi all,

It appeared my name had been mentioned by Sepang and Sakthi777 in this topic, however I did not know, how this topic will be end up.

Sepang you wrote:
"Look at the Muzium Siber, www.kerisjawa.tk <http://www.kerisjawa.tk>, etc, you can see some image about Keris Budho. But, if I ask them, they can't give a guarantee that their keris is old"

Sakhti777 you wrote:
"Look at that. Thanks Sepang. Sure, a similar quality of blade as posted by Ria for his k.buda. Try undress the warangan, then you would see the reality"

If you considered my keris is not a such of keris buda, please be my guest! Both of you had a full right to call whatever you like about my keris! But, I would like to bring your attention, I'm very, very impressed as what Marto Suwignyo had wrote on his post, which I think he is giving a very "constructive parameters" to analyse the keris in depth. So, Sepang and Sakhti777, any specific parameter you had in mind to analyse the keris buda?

Regard,
Ria

DhenTal · 31st January 2005, 09:56 AM

If I lok arround at the thread, Ria posted many photos of kriss too. Many piece is new, but many kriss that Ria called old kriss, actualy is new piece too. Like a Jalak Budo in his hpage. It is a real new kriss. In this case, shakti777 more correctly to give opinion.

Sepang · 31st January 2005, 11:28 AM

Oh... Ria

, try to ask to Bambang Irian. Order him to go to Kediri, Madiun, Malang, Sumenep (East Java) or Jogja in order to know how the blacksmith make it. So, beware if you said that your keris called Jalak Buda. It can be just Putran.

Although I just look by photos, but I was trying to understanding about the Iron, Pasikutan ........ and Chi (he..he..). My conclusion, your keris just a putran. The iron diffrent between real old keris buda with yours. The keris buda have a hard iron wave with the unripe iron. But your iron keriss look so ripe with more modern technique metal handiwork. So, the raw your keris can be made from old keris.

.... But, I more like with DhenTal opinion about kerisses..., so to the point

nechesh · 31st January 2005, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sepang

.... But, I more like with DhenTal opinion about kerisses..., so to the point

Sepang, i am afraid i must diagree with you here. DhenTal is not "to the point" at all. He is merely passing judgement without giving any real criteria for his assessments. This is not to say he is incorrect. However, it is not at all helpful to the understanding of the matter to simply condemn without telling us why. I do understand that language is a bit of a problem here, but i would like to hear more reasons for these statements.
Also DhenTal, i am curious what you think about the two examples that are posted in Alan Maisey's article. Are these also fakes?

Sepang · 31st January 2005, 02:19 PM

Sorry nechesh, I don't mean like that

.
I just try to give DhenTal "the praise" about his opinion with no reason which clear

I'm think so, that he use the language to give a problem here... like ... :

DhenTal said, "..... Sepang kriss, although look like a nice piece, but I consider with damascan. It can be made by now. And it look so whole..."
.... or aother he said...

My question..., how can I made new the pamor (damascan) in my old kerisses ? May be DhenTal is a smart blacksmith

so that he can know, which the pamor is made by now or old

So... DhenTal, please give us your reason about your statements

BluErf · 4th February 2005, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DhenTal

Nechesh, I think all of keris was posted in this thread like a new kriss which was modificated or not real damascan.
My Keris kriss is very fake. It more like a new kriss which low knowledge to make it.
Sepang kriss, although look like a nice piece, but I consider with damascan. It can be made by now. And it look so whole.
BluErf kriss, like a new kriss too, so that he don't post it with close up picture.

perhaps I can made mistake, so please forgive me

Hey... be nice to my kerises ok...

You can insult me but not my 'babies'.

Anyway, out of that collage, I only reckon 2 to be 'new'. By 'new' I mean 20th century work. 1 is early 20th century, the other late 20th century. The others should be 19th century or earlier. Incidentally, both of these 2 newer kerises are of Javanese/Madurese origins. My collection consist mostly of Bugis/Sumatran/Malayan pieces. Problem of 'fake' (new made to look old) kerises are not as rampant as Javanese/Madurese kerises (although the Madurese are beginning to fake Bugis kerises, but I think they still suck at it

). That's one of the reasons why I concentrated on those areas. Anyway, when a good keris come along, I am extremely indiscriminate.

So DhenTal, are you a collector of Javanese/Madurese kerises, or do you collect Bugis/Sumatran/Malayan kerises too?

27th January 2005, 03:04 AM	#3
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Yes Rick, where does this "revelation" leave us? Well, if understood, and taken to heart, we can begin by not getting caught up in the nonsense that often passes as expertise around here, where self-proclaimed "experts" with absolutely no credentials or reputations pop up out of thin air and pass judgement suspicious or spurious keris. There is so much we can talk about when it comes to keris without dealing with the business of authenticating weapons from inadequate photographs. We would also find ourselves less susceptible to charlatans and unscrupuluous dealers who would use this forum as a staging point to sell forgeries to a manipulated audience. Not that i am implying that this has necessarily been the case in this thread. Thank you Marto, for (hopefully) finally making clear what i have been trying to say for a very long time. Last edited by nechesh; 27th January 2005 at 11:34 AM.

31st January 2005, 09:26 AM	#18
Ria Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 14	Keris Buda Hi all, It appeared my name had been mentioned by Sepang and Sakthi777 in this topic, however I did not know, how this topic will be end up. Sepang you wrote: "Look at the Muzium Siber, www.kerisjawa.tk <http://www.kerisjawa.tk>, etc, you can see some image about Keris Budho. But, if I ask them, they can't give a guarantee that their keris is old" Sakhti777 you wrote: "Look at that. Thanks Sepang. Sure, a similar quality of blade as posted by Ria for his k.buda. Try undress the warangan, then you would see the reality" If you considered my keris is not a such of keris buda, please be my guest! Both of you had a full right to call whatever you like about my keris! But, I would like to bring your attention, I'm very, very impressed as what Marto Suwignyo had wrote on his post, which I think he is giving a very "constructive parameters" to analyse the keris in depth. So, Sepang and Sakhti777, any specific parameter you had in mind to analyse the keris buda? Regard, Ria

27th January 2005, 01:30 AM	#1
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	martho suwignyo, Many forumite would agree with you (i guess). It had been iterated by some esteem members (eg. nechesh) earlier, that physically assessment of the item is best. But in this forum, it is not possible. Therefore, (in general) pictures are used to get a visual opinion 'first impression' of the item, although it should not be conclusive. (in my opinion, only).

27th January 2005, 03:26 AM	#4
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Rick, That would leave us at: (in general) pictures used to get a visual opinion 'first impression' of the item, although it should not be conclusive. (in my opinion, only). Can be used to identify the dapur, pamor ...etc, though. As far as authenticity...it is difficult. > it is not possible to gain any idea at all of weight and the distribution of that > weight, unless the keris is handled. Texture of the material can only be > guessed at. Again, all this is my opinion only, (except for the arrowed text, it's marto's).

27th January 2005, 10:29 AM	#6
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Don't be sad, Rick, What i mean is, of course there are things to talk about. As mentioned by nechesh, below; my exact sentiments... > There is so much we can talk about when it comes to keris without dealing > with the business of authenticating weapons from inadequate photographs. > We would also find ourselves less susceptible to charlatans and > unscrupuluous dealers who would use this forum as a staging point to sell > forgeries to a manipulated audience. > Not that i am implying that this has necessarily been the case in this > thread. I, for one, would like to see pictures of nice pieces. I do appreciate the beauty of clear picture pieces, whether there old or new keris. As for authenticating pieces...er...who am i to judge? I can give opinions, but it will be my own...and not to be taken as assessment of the piece. I hope this clears up matters. I would like it see this forum as a cool (dispute-free) place to express own opinion of presented pieces. Therefore, I'm sorry if i hurt your feelings...

27th January 2005, 11:56 AM	#7
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Hi Rick. Don't be disheartened. There really is a lot we can talk about without getting hung up on authenticity. And when i say hung up i am implying that we can still talk about it. My concerns are seeing it as the end all supreme topic, when infact, it can't really be decided here and is only used as an opening for abusive use of the forum. People need to come to accept that if someone says a keris is definitely authentic (or not) based on a photograph alone that they probably don't know what they are talking about. For the most part, if the photos are good, we can still see quality of workmanship, dapur and pamor designs, etc. We can still discuss the ever evolving place of the keris in Indonesian society and it's place in history ( a subject solely under discussed and misunderstood). We can still say, i like, or i don't like.....or i think that's might be old, or not, because of this or that. But no, with out handling a piece, even the greatest expert would, at best, just be guessing most of the time on true authenticity.

27th January 2005, 12:52 PM	#8
Sepang Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 33	I agree with Marto Suwognyo and any body comments in this thread, but I think, by photos, we can learn more about pasikutan, the iron and pamor, and other ricikan of kerisses. So, we can discus about that and know more which keris are fake or real. Specifically if we need to buy online some piece. Nechesh, sorry, I was error try to open the link. I mean the Jalak Budho is a putran. Look closer at pijetan or tikel alis, the curve is so sharp. If the keris is old, the curve in pijetan, sogokan and tikel alis is smooth and flexible. I just try give my opinion. TQ

27th January 2005, 01:25 PM	#9
DAHenkel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 125	Everyone knows you can tell a lot more about a keris (or anything else for that matter) by handling it in person. That said, if you show me a picture of a '78 Pinto, I don't need to kick the tires and take it for a test drive to tell you its a piece of crap car.

27th January 2005, 03:16 PM	#11
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Apparently, there are aficionados of the '78 Pintos... http://www3.sympatico.ca/guinnessd/pinto/pintos/ And there's one with Dave's name on it...

27th January 2005, 03:25 PM	#13
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Sepang, Nice exquisite beautiful kerises.

27th January 2005, 03:45 PM	#14
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Just wondering, did Ford pay these guys to put up these 'fansites' for pintos...

27th January 2005, 09:29 PM	#15
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Com'n guys, who would want a Pinto when they could own a '72 Gremlin? http://www.wkdwich.com/gremlin5.htm Now that's a car!

31st January 2005, 07:06 AM	#16
DhenTal Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 20	Nechesh, I think all of keris was posted in this thread like a new kriss which was modificated or not real damascan. My Keris kriss is very fake. It more like a new kriss which low knowledge to make it. Sepang kriss, although look like a nice piece, but I consider with damascan. It can be made by now. And it look so whole. BluErf kriss, like a new kriss too, so that he don't post it with close up picture. perhaps I can made mistake, so please forgive me

31st January 2005, 08:21 AM	#17
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 369	Hi DenThal, U can look at previous threads to see some of Blu's keris closeup pictures. He already posted the pictures previously, so i dont think posting it again will do much help.

31st January 2005, 09:56 AM	#19
DhenTal Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 20	If I lok arround at the thread, Ria posted many photos of kriss too. Many piece is new, but many kriss that Ria called old kriss, actualy is new piece too. Like a Jalak Budo in his hpage. It is a real new kriss. In this case, shakti777 more correctly to give opinion.

31st January 2005, 11:28 AM	#20
Sepang Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 33	Oh... Ria , try to ask to Bambang Irian. Order him to go to Kediri, Madiun, Malang, Sumenep (East Java) or Jogja in order to know how the blacksmith make it. So, beware if you said that your keris called Jalak Buda. It can be just Putran. Although I just look by photos, but I was trying to understanding about the Iron, Pasikutan ........ and Chi (he..he..). My conclusion, your keris just a putran. The iron diffrent between real old keris buda with yours. The keris buda have a hard iron wave with the unripe iron. But your iron keriss look so ripe with more modern technique metal handiwork. So, the raw your keris can be made from old keris. .... But, I more like with DhenTal opinion about kerisses..., so to the point

31st January 2005, 02:19 PM	#22
Sepang Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 33	Sorry nechesh, I don't mean like that . I just try to give DhenTal "the praise" about his opinion with no reason which clear I'm think so, that he use the language to give a problem here... like ... : DhenTal said, "..... Sepang kriss, although look like a nice piece, but I consider with damascan. It can be made by now. And it look so whole..." .... or aother he said... My question..., how can I made new the pamor (damascan) in my old kerisses ? May be DhenTal is a smart blacksmith so that he can know, which the pamor is made by now or old So... DhenTal, please give us your reason about your statements