A large 19th century flintlock pistol

Pukka Bundook · 8th February 2021, 04:11 PM

Dear Fernando,

The proof marks are as you show in the catatlog, but this does not mean that the earlier mark disappeared, it was merely retained for muzzle -loading arms, up to at least 1981.
The one you show in the photo is interesting, as it has the Crowned ELG mark, for military arms, Plus, the Crowned R for Rifled arms.
V good to see them both !

Kind regards,
Richard.

fernando · 8th February 2021, 05:26 PM

Dear Richard,

From a well established French house i could read in the original language what, being translated reads as follows;

The ELG marking is the regulatory hallmark of the Liège proofhouse. This punch has evolved over time. These three letters were inscribed in a vertical oval between 1811 and 1893 and then still (puis dans toujour) in a vertical oval but surmounted by a crown from 1893 to the present day.

By reading the term 'evolved' and 'still in a vertical oval but surmounted by a crown', i inferred that the previous symbol ceased being applied. I am ready to say that i was driven to the wrong conclusion, once you have different evidence.
All Belgian guns i have had would have been made before the 1890's.

Pukka Bundook · 9th February 2021, 12:07 AM

Dear Fernando,

It is difficult to resolve this my friend, when we both have different books that tell us different things. :-)
I do know I had a reproduction, and not very good quality musket, that had the ELG and star in the oval, and no crown, (Crowned would mean military arms my book says) The one I had was not military, and made possibly in the 1950's or 60's.

We will not fall out over this. It may be we have to accept that two sources tell us different facts. :-)

If I see this stamp on a reproduction arm, and can post it here, I will do so.

Kindest regards,
Richard.

Edited to say I fond this on -line.
It says exactly the same as the booklet put out by the Gunmakers Company Proof House, of London.

Very best,
Richard.

fernando · 9th February 2021, 10:50 AM

Dear Richard,
You are absolutely right in that we won't fall out over this intricate subject.
Yet finding the 'real thing' for everyone's perusal, would be useful... i believe.
As an ultimate move, i have e-mailed the Liege Museum Director, with hopes that he sends along an actual listing of Liege proof marks.Expecting it to be supported with a circumstancial text, given to the fact that, as my be seen in this LINK, some of these marks had a different meaning depending on the dates they were used.

.

Pukka Bundook · 9th February 2021, 02:31 PM

"some of these marks had a different meaning depending on the dates they were used."

You are absolutely correct my dear friend.
I look forward to hearing of the information from the proof House.

Stay warm and safe. Here it is minus 40C again! (This is the same temp, (minus 40, if degrees F too. Both feel cold.) :-)
Up north it has been minus 72 degrees....

fernando · 9th February 2021, 02:58 PM

No reason to feel cold wih those sauna temperatures, Richard. The real thing is over here, with 13C (55F)

.
Stay safe, you too

.

corrado26 · 9th February 2021, 04:26 PM

half an hour ago:

fernando · 10th February 2021, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

...I look forward to hearing of the information from the proof House...

Claude Gaier, Director of the Liege Arms Museum, is deceased since the last January 3th.
Here the BIOGRAPHY of a great arms specialist.

PS
I have now sen t e-mail to the present museum curator.

.

fernando · 11th February 2021, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

... I have now sen t e-mail to the present museum curator...

... And here is the (roughly translated) answer:

You are right, such correct information is not always easy to find, given the scope and complexity of the subject. It has been five months since i took office and i still 'often swim'. Having said that, i highly recommend a very reliable and well done site where you should find everything you need. They have also just published an encyclopedia in six volumes on the Liège armory that i have already ordered. This site is HERE.
Hoping that this site will meet your expectations, please receive, Mr. Viana, the expression of my warmest regards.

Löic Servais
Conservator

8th February 2021, 05:26 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Standing corrected ... Dear Richard, From a well established French house i could read in the original language what, being translated reads as follows; The ELG marking is the regulatory hallmark of the Liège proofhouse. This punch has evolved over time. These three letters were inscribed in a vertical oval between 1811 and 1893 and then still (puis dans toujour) in a vertical oval but surmounted by a crown from 1893 to the present day. By reading the term 'evolved' and 'still in a vertical oval but surmounted by a crown', i inferred that the previous symbol ceased being applied. I am ready to say that i was driven to the wrong conclusion, once you have different evidence. All Belgian guns i have had would have been made before the 1890's.

9th February 2021, 12:07 AM	#3
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Dear Fernando, It is difficult to resolve this my friend, when we both have different books that tell us different things. :-) I do know I had a reproduction, and not very good quality musket, that had the ELG and star in the oval, and no crown, (Crowned would mean military arms my book says) The one I had was not military, and made possibly in the 1950's or 60's. We will not fall out over this. It may be we have to accept that two sources tell us different facts. :-) If I see this stamp on a reproduction arm, and can post it here, I will do so. Kindest regards, Richard. Edited to say I fond this on -line. It says exactly the same as the booklet put out by the Gunmakers Company Proof House, of London. Very best, Richard. Attached Images Last edited by Pukka Bundook; 9th February 2021 at 02:25 AM.

9th February 2021, 10:50 AM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Dear Richard, You are absolutely right in that we won't fall out over this intricate subject. Yet finding the 'real thing' for everyone's perusal, would be useful... i believe. As an ultimate move, i have e-mailed the Liege Museum Director, with hopes that he sends along an actual listing of Liege proof marks.Expecting it to be supported with a circumstancial text, given to the fact that, as my be seen in this LINK, some of these marks had a different meaning depending on the dates they were used. . Last edited by fernando; 9th February 2021 at 12:34 PM.

9th February 2021, 04:26 PM	#7
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,226	half an hour ago: Attached Images

8th February 2021, 04:11 PM	#1
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Dear Fernando, The proof marks are as you show in the catatlog, but this does not mean that the earlier mark disappeared, it was merely retained for muzzle -loading arms, up to at least 1981. The one you show in the photo is interesting, as it has the Crowned ELG mark, for military arms, Plus, the Crowned R for Rifled arms. V good to see them both ! Kind regards, Richard.

9th February 2021, 02:31 PM	#5
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	"some of these marks had a different meaning depending on the dates they were used." You are absolutely correct my dear friend. I look forward to hearing of the information from the proof House. Stay warm and safe. Here it is minus 40C again! (This is the same temp, (minus 40, if degrees F too. Both feel cold.) :-) Up north it has been minus 72 degrees....

9th February 2021, 02:58 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	No reason to feel cold wih those sauna temperatures, Richard. The real thing is over here, with 13C (55F) . Stay safe, you too .