The British Broad Arrow Mark

[fernando]

Originally Posted by kronckew

... An Order in Council of 1664, relating to the requisitioning of merchant ships for naval use, similarly authorised the Commissioners of the Navy "to put the broad arrow on any ship in the River they had a mind to hire, and fit them out for sea"...

Would hou say Wayne that, the marking with the broad arrow (AKA crows foot) on military 'equipment' started at a first stage (1600's), and only much later this procedure was extended to actual weapons, like swords and firearms ?



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[fernando]

Here is another 1804 pattern cutlass marked with the broad arrow. Assuming that this pattern has only ceased being made circa 1845 (?), in this case the example shown has its actual production date limited to prior to 1807 as its blade spine is signed by BATE, who became Reddell & Bate during 1806.


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[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Would hou say Wayne that, the marking with the broad arrow (AKA crows foot) on military 'equipment' started at a first stage (1600's), and only much later this procedure was extended to actual weapons, like swords and firearms ?



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As Adrian and I had suggested (posts 14,15) the use of the broad arrow as a government mark goes back to the 1300s, but do not seem to have extended from 'materials' to weapons until the time of Queen Anne (1702-14) in any notable degree.
From what I found and posted earlier is that artillery (including cannon balls as shown by Will) seems to have the arrow earlier in the 17th.

The markings seem to appear on gun locks in the early 18th, but as I had noted, swords being mostly privately secured (though proved by officials) did not have the arrow. Some swords (naval cutlasses as noted by CC) had the GR mark on the blade, but other rank and file just had makers names.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... As Adrian and I had suggested (posts 14,15) the use of the broad arrow as a government mark goes back to the 1300s, but do not seem to have extended from 'materials' to weapons until the time of Queen Anne (1702-14) in any notable degree...

Dear Jim, you might have noticed that i was aware of that; even posted confirming pictures. It seems as i didn't make myself understood. My question was not based on the span between 'materials' and weapons but between 'military equipment' and actual weapons, as per my previous post, due to having read it here and there. I was trying to dissect whether the term 'Military equipment' comprehends general hardware, artillery as for only guns ... or as (also) for ammunition; that not for swords and firearms.
But this was only a 'preciuousness' i was trying to tease Wayne to solve.

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by fernando

...
But this was only a 'preciuousness' i was trying to tease Wayne to solve.

It of course hinges on defining exactly which stores they meant by "Any Stores of War or Naval Stores whatsoever, with the Marks usually used to and marked upon His Majesties said Warlike and Naval or Ordnance Stores; ... [including] any other Stores with the Broad Arrow by Stamp Brand or otherwise". Note use of the word 'ordinance'.

Must have been written by a drunken Lord Solicitor.

Naval stores - Definition: Supplies for warships. First use 1670.
The definition of ordnance is military weapons.

I did find a reference of:
"The cutlass remained an official weapon in United States Navy stores until 1949". (I've posted photos of a US Marine in ww2 carrying the milsco 1941 cutlass before)

(and beyond)


It then references a US Marine NCO killing a NK soldier with one in 195o's at Inchon, and the authorization in 2011 for petty officers to carry them ceremonially, and have seen photos of POs doing cutlass drill on the Hanger deck of a US Nuclear Carrier while in blue camouflage. The cutlass is alive and well.

As we have no examples of UK models that early with broad arrow stamps, it is unlikely that they so marked them that early.

I am sure if Fernando had been around there then he would have ensured they were stamped to verify authentic RN ownership. As usual it's the ARMY B.O. who is to blame.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by kronckew

... I am sure if Fernando had been around there then he would have ensured they were stamped to verify authentic RN ownership...

Sure thing, Wayne .

[kronckew]

I forgot this 'Naval Hanger' of mine, a Continental impressed into RN service: Appears to have a broad arrow stamped over another mark.

[fernando]

That doesn't look like a crow's foot, Wayne; more like a hen's foot .