Plain Jane Yataghan Origin Requested

David R · 5th February 2021, 03:53 PM

Normally these are identified by the inscription, or by distinctive mounts, having neither this is impossible to place. Sorry mate, sometimes that happens.

Athanase · 5th February 2021, 05:54 PM

Hello,

I am not at all a Yatagan specialist but I acquired one 1 week ago in a batch of Indonesian weapons. It is also very simple, very similar in construction, except that the brass of the handle is replaced by a white metal with the same zigzag decoration as the copper of the scabbard (I have also a Bichaq with the same construction). The only visible mark is the date 1877 marked in small dotted lines on each side of the blade. I suspect my specimen was not made for a soldier, but to be sold as a souvenir.

RobT · 6th February 2021, 08:57 PM

David R
You have a good point. Save for the motif on the sheath throat, my piece is certainly without any inscription or decoration. So, unless somebody knows of an area where yataghans are made without embellishment, I may be out of luck.

Athanase,
I don't know what your yataghan looks like but I don't believe the one I have was meant as a souvenir for the following reasons: The blade on mine is well forged and well shaped and the hilt is solidly mounted to the tang. The wear patterns on all components indicate use and carry. And finally, there is an absence of any bling. Why would anyone go to all the hard work of making a combat ready item as a souvenir and then not provide it with the eye candy (no matter how tawdry) designed to catch the tourist's eye? Perhaps you could provide a photo of your yataghan for examination and comment? You may have judged it too harshly.
Sincerely,
RobT

Athanase · 6th February 2021, 11:32 PM

I re-looked at the photos of your Yatagan, and indeed your blade is much better than mine. But the scabbard the same construction. Of course when I was talking about a souvenir weapon I was talking about mine. I'm trying to take pictures on Sunday.

RobT · 7th February 2021, 04:06 AM

Athanase,

I look forward to the photos of your yataghan. The sheath for your blade may provide a clue of origin. If yours is very similar to mine and you are sure that yours is from Indonesia, then I have a starting point for further research.

Sincerely,
RobT

Athanase · 7th February 2021, 10:14 AM

Hello,

I must have expressed myself in a confusing way (I'm not good at English).
I bought my Yatagan in France, in a group of Indonesian weapons (tombak, keris ...), the seller had everything mixed up. But it is clear that my Yatagan is from the Ottoman Empire and not from Indonesia.

Kubur · 7th February 2021, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David R

Normally these are identified by the inscription, or by distinctive mounts, having neither this is impossible to place. Sorry mate, sometimes that happens.

Of course, it's an authentic 19th c yataghan, but as David said it's almost impossible to say more than that.

Your yataghan could be from anywhere, between the Balkans, Turkey or even Syria...

You should post a good photo of the blade, I cannot see any back edge / flat spine on your photos...

Athanase · 7th February 2021, 04:33 PM

Pictures of my Yatagan for comparison.
I just cleaned the scabbard with soap to remove the dust, but I haven't touched anything yet.

The scabbard is made of wood covered with leather sewn with copper wire and covered with thin sheet of engraved copper. The tip of the scabbard is made by a copper thimble. The handle is in horn and white metal. The blade is made of steel, maximum 3mm thick. It is a little sharp, but the groove is very badly hollowed out.

RobT · 7th February 2021, 05:45 PM

Kubur
I have made close-ups of the spine at hilt, T-Rib and tip of my blade. Caliper measurement of the spine at hilt measures 11/32" (between 8 & 9mm, .34375 decimal inches). The T-Rib tapers distally from the hilt and ends 1-7/8" (44.45mm, 1.875 decimal inches) before the tip. I can't recall ever having seen a yataghan with a T-Rib before but maybe I haven't been paying close enough attention (they are usually so darn expensive that I only glance at them).

Athanase,
Your English appears to be quite good. Are you sure the spine on yours is only 3mm? I ask this because that is well under 1/8" and otherwise, your blade looks OK to me. Certainly, based on the photos alone without the measurement, I would be inclined to buy it if the price were right.

Sincerely,
RobT

Kubur · 7th February 2021, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobT

Kubur
I have made close-ups of the spine at hilt, T-Rib and tip of my blade. Caliper measurement of the spine at hilt measures 11/32" (between 8 & 9mm, .34375 decimal inches). The T-Rib tapers distally from the hilt and ends 1-7/8" (44.45mm, 1.875 decimal inches) before the tip. I can't recall ever having seen a yataghan with a T-Rib before but maybe I haven't been paying close enough attention (they are usually so darn expensive that I only glance at them).
Sincerely,
RobT

Hi Rob,
You have a good steel blade and Marius will tell you to polish it and he will be right!

I wil take some risks and say that your Yat is from Bulgaria or Turkey...

kronckew · 7th February 2021, 06:14 PM

Balkan karakulak yats are frequently fairly crude. They and many longer Bulgarian/Greek shepherds knives are made by local blacksmiths for less well off locals. most have integral bolsters, which the Turkish ones tend not to, having formed sheet metal, usually decorated or embeded with colored stones extending partway up the blade..Like yours (which has no stones).

Longer Balkan shepherds knives can look very yat-like.

In other words, without specific indicators, yours has mixed signals, Balkans Or Turkey sounds reasonable (or both).

p.s. - something simple, like a photo of the stitching on the scabbard may help too. Turks tended to use a sort of ladder with short horizontals wound with wire (example from a sabre below)

My Bulgarian (Balkan) Karaculak/shepherd's knife:

RobT · 7th February 2021, 07:38 PM

Kubur,
Thanks for the complement and possible origin. I cleaned up the blade a bit when I first got it but it does deserve some more work (including replacement of the missing back strap).

Athanase,
After I wrote about the thinness of your blade, I realized that I have a yataghan in my collection that has a very thin and flexible blade (only a hair over 1/8" [3.175mm]). Perhaps it and your blade are one of those shepherd karakulak that kronckew mentioned. If I had to do the amount of walking that a shepherd does, I would want the lightest blade that I could get that would still be effective. Also, I don't think leather sewn with copper wire is the type of thing that would be put on a souvenir. It sounds too serviceable.

kronckew,
Well, we have two votes for Balkans/Turkey so that is probably it.

I thank you guys for all your help. I will be posting some more puzzlers.
Sincerely,
RobT

Athanase · 7th February 2021, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobT

Kubur
Athanase,
Your English appears to be quite good. Are you sure the spine on yours is only 3mm? I ask this because that is well under 1/8" and otherwise, your blade looks OK to me. Certainly, based on the photos alone without the measurement, I would be inclined to buy it if the price were right.

Sincerely,
RobT

The length of the blade is 60 cm, its width is about 3.6cm and its thickness is 8mm at the base (because covered with decorated white metal) then between 4 and 3mm on the majority of the length of the blade except the last 10 cm of the point where the thickness obviously decreases.

werecow · 16th July 2022, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobT

Kubur
I can't recall ever having seen a yataghan with a T-Rib before but maybe I haven't been paying close enough attention (they are usually so darn expensive that I only glance at them).

You see them from time to time. I posted another one here a while ago. On mine, the T-section runs up to the bolster.

ariel · 16th July 2022, 02:49 PM

I would remove Turkey from the list of potential sources of origin.
1.The so-called Auspicious Incident ( 1826) destroyed the Ottoman Janissary corpse and initiated persecution of the remaining ones. Thus, the demand for yataghans dwindled in Turkey proper. However, manufacture of bladed weapons of Ottoman style persisted unabated in the already independent Balkans even in the early 20th century.
2. The date on the blade is given as Gregorian, not Hijjra ( Athanase’s example).
3. Numerals are European, and the crossed 7 is also very European feature.
4. The “zigzag” decoration in various forms, locations and complexity are often seen on very simple “village-produced” Balkan weapons ( see Tariq Koze “Balkan Arms”).

These considerations shift the usage of yataghans from Anatolia to “Rumelia”, ie. the European, specifically Christian, part of the former Ottoman Empire, most likely the Balkans where the Ottoman-style weapons became in fact, truly indigenous over several centuries of Turkish rule.

gp · 16th July 2022, 08:03 PM

Enclosed a scabbard and small yataghan or long bichaq as I would prefer to call it, I bought in a lot from some one in Croatia some time ago.

Althought slightly different, the simplicity or "naivity" of the scabbard decoration looks quite similar to the above.

6th February 2021, 08:57 PM	#3
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 533	Thanks For The Responses David R You have a good point. Save for the motif on the sheath throat, my piece is certainly without any inscription or decoration. So, unless somebody knows of an area where yataghans are made without embellishment, I may be out of luck. Athanase, I don't know what your yataghan looks like but I don't believe the one I have was meant as a souvenir for the following reasons: The blade on mine is well forged and well shaped and the hilt is solidly mounted to the tang. The wear patterns on all components indicate use and carry. And finally, there is an absence of any bling. Why would anyone go to all the hard work of making a combat ready item as a souvenir and then not provide it with the eye candy (no matter how tawdry) designed to catch the tourist's eye? Perhaps you could provide a photo of your yataghan for examination and comment? You may have judged it too harshly. Sincerely, RobT

7th February 2021, 04:06 AM	#5
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 533	The Sheath May Hold the Clue Athanase, I look forward to the photos of your yataghan. The sheath for your blade may provide a clue of origin. If yours is very similar to mine and you are sure that yours is from Indonesia, then I have a starting point for further research. Sincerely, RobT

7th February 2021, 04:33 PM	#8
Athanase Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Paris (France) Posts: 417	Pictures of my Yatagan for comparison. I just cleaned the scabbard with soap to remove the dust, but I haven't touched anything yet. The scabbard is made of wood covered with leather sewn with copper wire and covered with thin sheet of engraved copper. The tip of the scabbard is made by a copper thimble. The handle is in horn and white metal. The blade is made of steel, maximum 3mm thick. It is a little sharp, but the groove is very badly hollowed out. Attached Images

7th February 2021, 05:45 PM	#9
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 533	Spine, T-Rib & Tip Close-ups Kubur I have made close-ups of the spine at hilt, T-Rib and tip of my blade. Caliper measurement of the spine at hilt measures 11/32" (between 8 & 9mm, .34375 decimal inches). The T-Rib tapers distally from the hilt and ends 1-7/8" (44.45mm, 1.875 decimal inches) before the tip. I can't recall ever having seen a yataghan with a T-Rib before but maybe I haven't been paying close enough attention (they are usually so darn expensive that I only glance at them). Athanase, Your English appears to be quite good. Are you sure the spine on yours is only 3mm? I ask this because that is well under 1/8" and otherwise, your blade looks OK to me. Certainly, based on the photos alone without the measurement, I would be inclined to buy it if the price were right. Sincerely, RobT Attached Images

7th February 2021, 06:14 PM	#11
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	Balkan karakulak yats are frequently fairly crude. They and many longer Bulgarian/Greek shepherds knives are made by local blacksmiths for less well off locals. most have integral bolsters, which the Turkish ones tend not to, having formed sheet metal, usually decorated or embeded with colored stones extending partway up the blade..Like yours (which has no stones). Longer Balkan shepherds knives can look very yat-like. In other words, without specific indicators, yours has mixed signals, Balkans Or Turkey sounds reasonable (or both). p.s. - something simple, like a photo of the stitching on the scabbard may help too. Turks tended to use a sort of ladder with short horizontals wound with wire (example from a sabre below) My Bulgarian (Balkan) Karaculak/shepherd's knife: Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 7th February 2021 at 07:18 PM.

5th February 2021, 03:53 PM	#1
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,114	Normally these are identified by the inscription, or by distinctive mounts, having neither this is impossible to place. Sorry mate, sometimes that happens.

5th February 2021, 05:54 PM	#2
Athanase Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Paris (France) Posts: 417	Hello, I am not at all a Yatagan specialist but I acquired one 1 week ago in a batch of Indonesian weapons. It is also very simple, very similar in construction, except that the brass of the handle is replaced by a white metal with the same zigzag decoration as the copper of the scabbard (I have also a Bichaq with the same construction). The only visible mark is the date 1877 marked in small dotted lines on each side of the blade. I suspect my specimen was not made for a soldier, but to be sold as a souvenir.

6th February 2021, 11:32 PM	#4
Athanase Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Paris (France) Posts: 417	I re-looked at the photos of your Yatagan, and indeed your blade is much better than mine. But the scabbard the same construction. Of course when I was talking about a souvenir weapon I was talking about mine. I'm trying to take pictures on Sunday.

7th February 2021, 10:14 AM	#6
Athanase Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Paris (France) Posts: 417	Hello, I must have expressed myself in a confusing way (I'm not good at English). I bought my Yatagan in France, in a group of Indonesian weapons (tombak, keris ...), the seller had everything mixed up. But it is clear that my Yatagan is from the Ottoman Empire and not from Indonesia.

7th February 2021, 07:38 PM	#12
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 533	Thanks For The Responses Kubur, Thanks for the complement and possible origin. I cleaned up the blade a bit when I first got it but it does deserve some more work (including replacement of the missing back strap). Athanase, After I wrote about the thinness of your blade, I realized that I have a yataghan in my collection that has a very thin and flexible blade (only a hair over 1/8" [3.175mm]). Perhaps it and your blade are one of those shepherd karakulak that kronckew mentioned. If I had to do the amount of walking that a shepherd does, I would want the lightest blade that I could get that would still be effective. Also, I don't think leather sewn with copper wire is the type of thing that would be put on a souvenir. It sounds too serviceable. kronckew, Well, we have two votes for Balkans/Turkey so that is probably it. I thank you guys for all your help. I will be posting some more puzzlers. Sincerely, RobT

16th July 2022, 02:49 PM	#15
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I would remove Turkey from the list of potential sources of origin. 1.The so-called Auspicious Incident ( 1826) destroyed the Ottoman Janissary corpse and initiated persecution of the remaining ones. Thus, the demand for yataghans dwindled in Turkey proper. However, manufacture of bladed weapons of Ottoman style persisted unabated in the already independent Balkans even in the early 20th century. 2. The date on the blade is given as Gregorian, not Hijjra ( Athanase’s example). 3. Numerals are European, and the crossed 7 is also very European feature. 4. The “zigzag” decoration in various forms, locations and complexity are often seen on very simple “village-produced” Balkan weapons ( see Tariq Koze “Balkan Arms”). These considerations shift the usage of yataghans from Anatolia to “Rumelia”, ie. the European, specifically Christian, part of the former Ottoman Empire, most likely the Balkans where the Ottoman-style weapons became in fact, truly indigenous over several centuries of Turkish rule. Last edited by ariel; 16th July 2022 at 03:53 PM.

16th July 2022, 08:03 PM	#16
gp Member Join Date: May 2020 Posts: 823	Enclosed a scabbard and small yataghan or long bichaq as I would prefer to call it, I bought in a lot from some one in Croatia some time ago. Althought slightly different, the simplicity or "naivity" of the scabbard decoration looks quite similar to the above. Attached Images