A large 19th century flintlock pistol

[colin henshaw]

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Fernando,
On my Liege pistol there is a crowned H and according to the proof mark list I attached a crowned letter was an inspection mark initiated in 1853.
As far as still producing flintlocks when better alternatives were available see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=birmingham I would suggest there was still a market for basic firearms in many parts of the world in the second half of the 19thc.
Thanks for your thoughts as always.
My Regards,
Norman.

P.S. I see Will beat me to the same conclusion.

Yes, very true - there was a market for basic muzzle-loading firearms in Africa in the late 19th century particularly. However, as well as the specifically made lower quality "trade" guns, large amounts of obsolete flintlocks and percussion guns were shipped to Africa when they became outdated in Europe and breech-loaders and cartridges were introduced.

[CutlassCollector]

My Belgian sea service pistol is marked with the ELG - no crown and does not appear to have an inspectors mark.

With reference to the lack of a ramrod in some pistols. Pistols were of limited range and generally issued to seamen for boarding actions. The boarding party were probably handed a pistol previously loaded by the armourer and a cutlass and as has already been stated the chances of stopping to reload during a melee would be non-existent, even if they had been trained and carried the right equipment.

Lieutenant Green who fought at Trafalgar and went on to write a training manual for improving the weapons training of the crew noted that it was commonly reported that as soon as the sailors boarded they fired the pistol, chucked it at the enemy and then got to work with a cutlass.

He promoted reversing the grip after firing so that the barrel ran along back along the forearm of the left arm so it could be used as a guard to deflect cutlass blows to the head. It does not say how well that was adopted - my guess would be the sailors carried on throwing them away as as soon as they could.

[M ELEY]

Wow, this item did open up a can of worms! Apart from my wanting it to be an earlier piece, there are similar examples in the Greenwich Maritime Museum of these types with provenance to the time period originally suggested (ca. 1810 and on). I looked again at the mark on my pistol and although my pic of it wasn't so great, it is without question a V under crown and not a W, which was a Leige mark I assume?

In regards to private purchase, I have seen all manner of strange, one-off marks for these. I used to own a cutlass of the standard m1840 Brit pattern marked 'RN". The seller told me "Royal Navy"...don't think so! No other marking. I've seen a lot of m1803's with no marking whatsoever and listed as 'after-market' for private purchase frigates.

Thanks for those great pics of your pistols, Norman! The Arabic example was particularly interesting! Corrado's example was another fascinating piece from a Leige maker.

Thanks, Fernando, for the clarification of Napoleon's control of the region. It still befuddles me unless these pistols were used by French privateers or after-market private purchase. Or only for foreign markets?! (Sudan, Middle East)

Norman, a great suggestion. I am not a firearms collector, so usually leery about taking guns apart. This example, however, with its pin system makes it easy to remove. I'll get to it hopefully soon.
So...still no clear answers to me as far as these marks. My ELG looks like the earlier mark, but what is the significance of the V under crown. If not British but Leige, is this a post 1850 mark?

[Jim McDougall]

From Blackmore, "British Military Firearms", 1962,
"...but with the end of the war the demand for arms dropped dramatically. The Birmingham branch was the first to suffer. In 1814 the staff was halved and in the following year Miller, the Inspector of Small Arms returned to London. Finally in 1818, the premises at Birmingham were closed".
p.272
In Appendix D, p.280, the marks of private Birmingham proof houses are shwn 25-30.
#27 is a crowned V.

In the detail on Marks pistol (OP) the Liege mark is shown as an oval ELG over star. This was the mark used from 1810-1853 in Liege.

In 1812 England was not only at war with France on the Continent, but with the American colonies in the war of 1812. The demand for arms was considerable and delays with contractors caused issues for makers. As the navy, according to Blackmore, often got the run of the mill weapons,it would not be surprising that imported pistols from Liege might have been brought n viewed at the Birmingham location.

The barrel mark was in use at Liege in 1812. The crowned V was in use at Birmingham in that year and at least until 1814.
The markings on this pistol would seem to correspond to the period of its use being contemporary to the suggestions of use in War of 1812, as well as Napoleonic campaigns. It seems quite possible these might have found use on privateers, if not on ships of the line.

[M ELEY]

Very nice example of your gun, David! Thanks for posting it for this discussion.

Great information, Jim! Thank you (and Mr. Blackmore!). The Birmingham angle makes perfect sense regarding an immediate need for private purchase and a quicker way to restocking the ship's defenses. I'm not disputing that this style of pistol wasn't around for a long time (quite amazing that it didn't change form much after nearly a century!). My main argument (and obviously from the records, others who study maritime artifacts) is that many of these pistols saw action during the mentioned events. Here's one from the esteemed London Museum collection-


https://www.diomedia.com/stock-photo...ge6852418.html

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Jim,
The ELG and star in a cartouche was used from 1810 until the present. I have attached a copy of London and Birmingham proof marks from The Worshipful Company of Gunmakers of the City of London and The Guardians of the Birmingham Proof House. This shows that a crowned V is a London proof and not Birmingham and if the gun was foreign made the V would be circled with the crown on top. All the charts I can find relating to Liege state that a crowned letter is the inspection mark from 1853 to 1877. I have also attached another chart with more specific dating.
Hope you are keeping well in this time of uncertainty.
My Regards,
Norman.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

The ELG and star in a cartouche was used from 1810 until the present ...

Nothing more than a slight detail, if i may, Norman. As per my post 31#, the star was replaced by a crown in 1893 .

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Jim,
The ELG and star in a cartouche was used from 1810 until the present. I have attached a copy of London and Birmingham proof marks from The Worshipful Company of Gunmakers of the City of London and The Guardians of the Birmingham Proof House. This shows that a crowned V is a London proof and not Birmingham and if the gun was foreign made the V would be circled with the crown on top. All the charts I can find relating to Liege state that a crowned letter is the inspection mark from 1853 to 1877. I have also attached another chart with more specific dating.
Hope you are keeping well in this time of uncertainty.
My Regards,
Norman.

Hi Norman,
Thank you so much for entries from this resource. I must say that while have studied swords most of my life, firearms have always seemed to elude me, so this great discussion is quite a learning curve for me. Of the very few books I have on firearms, this reference by Howard Blackmore has been with me for well over 40 years, and he seems to have been one of the most highly respected firearms authorities (according to most of the arms figures I knew in the years with the Arms & Armour Society in Loondon).

What puzzles me is that in his book (1961, attached pages) he shows items 25-30 as view and proof marks of PRIVATE Birmingham proof houses.
You will note that #27 is a crown over V. There seem to have been others using a P.

n "English Pistols and Revolvers" (J.Nigel George, 1938, p.94), the author notes the 'private proof houses were abolished in 1813, and "....a proof house similar to that of the Gunmakers of London was established at Birmingham. Arms that had undergone proof were now stamped with two marks, each in the form of two crossed sceptres surmounted by a crown, the first marked with the letter V, for viewed, the second with the letters BPC fr Birmingham Proof Co.".

As the resource you show begins with 1813 with these markings, it would seem that Mark's pistol must have been viewed by one of the number of private proof houses. During the wars (Napoleonic and 1812) the volume of firearms processed through London and these proof houses was staggering.
As previously noted, the constant break downs of flow of parts etc. with contractors was a frustration for makers, and it is easy to imagine that less costly and ready weapons from Liege would be resorted to, especally in the case for outfitting privateers.

While most resources seem to focus on 1813+, the records of gun markings seem less abundant in the years prior, as well as remarkably inconsistent.

As Mark has shown in the excellent entry from the National Maritime Museum, these sea service pistols were certainly in use early in the century. While the 'HMS Victory' association is surely spurious as they note, they do not dismiss the presence of these Belgian pistols in that period.

For me, the evidence points to the period we have been suggesting, 1810-13 for this Belgian Sea Service pistol, and likely use on any privateer vessel for the British during these wars in that time.

As for the anchor marking, just as with swords, these are by far not a prerequsite for naval weapons, and in my opinion were likely added privately in either zealous or hubris oriented character on other ranks arms.
I cannot imagine why Liege would apply such a mark, as their arms were not intended to serve any particular branch. While these pistols seem to have been regarded as 'sea service', they were used widely by any number of military units in many countries through the century.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Richard,
I take it this is the mark you are referring to.
My Regards,
Norman.

P.S. I've just read the whole of your post and of course it is the one you're referring to re your post no 53, I blame senility it's always a good get out clause.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

.. My main argument (and obviously from the records, others who study maritime artifacts) is that many of these pistols saw action during the mentioned events. Here's one from the esteemed London Museum collection-
https://www.diomedia.com/stock-photo...ge6852418.html

This is undoubtedly a private purchase, (not government contracted), right ?; the presence of a ELG* stamp and the absence of British proof marks on the barrel, make it clear. The engraving of the anchor 'could' have been done in Liege. Would you figure out what the two initials mean; the ship or the gun owner ?
I may be playing the fool but, as i never saw it being commented, and for one's perusal, the ELG letters mean ÉPREUVE LIEGE. The star was replaced in 1893 by a crown.

[Norman McCormick]

http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge...belge%20gb.htm

Hi,
This may be of interest. The guns in question are described as 1815 pattern Dutch-Belgian Navy pistols.
Regards,
Norman.