Requesting Help!! Identifying the specifics of a Kris

[A. G. Maisey]

EBN is not a low cost book. I know of two copies that were sold in Indonesia more than 5 years ago at the equivalent of approximately $US500 each, this book has apparently become a collector's item in its own right.

I have not heard of an English translation of either EK or KJ. Both these books are full of pictures and for a collector as distinct from a researcher, the pictures together with captions are probably enough.

The KITLV book that contains Groneman, ISBN 9789067183291, over the last few years has sold for between $US250 & $US350. My understanding is that this book is easily available.

Actually, this perceived barrier of language is not as high as one might think. Bahasa Indonesia is a very simple language to learn to a basic level --- after "basic" it can get a bit tricky, but with an Echols & Shadily I reckon anybody could get what they really need from EK, and perhaps KJ.

[David]

Originally Posted by Jean

David, did you imagine that your pic will raise such a debate?

LOL! Ahhhhh...nope, didn't see that coming.
Though once again, like the opinions you expressed, not MY pic. LOL!
I think this has been an interesting discussion, though as Alan points out, his salient points should not be anything new to those that have had an interest in keris for any reasonable period of time.
I do feel a bid for Max, however, since this thread does seem to have gone off on more than one tangent. Hopefully he feels his questions about his keris have been properly addressed.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The KITLV book that contains Groneman, ISBN 9789067183291, over the last few years has sold for between $US250 & $US350. My understanding is that this book is easily available.

I do believe it is possible to find this book for somewhere in the vicinity of the prices Alan suggests, though i would not go as far as to say it is easily available.
I would suggest you checkout the website bookfinder.com. This website will list all the available options to find used books from booksellers all around the world. You will not find this recent edition of The Javanese Kris new anywhere. Even though this updated and expanded version of this classic keris book was first released in 2009 i do not believe they have plans to run any new editions of it so it should probably be considered out-of-print at this point. I was fortunate to have jumped on a copy of this when it first came out and was selling for under $100USD. It is a handsome hardcover edition with all kinds of added photos and diagrams that were not in Groneman's origin printing. A nice book to own, though i don't image it is very essential to an understanding of the keris and certainly has it's share of "errors", so you may not really want to spent $300USD to acquire one.
I do believe, however, that you can access an online version from academia.edu. It says it is free if you sign up. You can see about the first 40 pages of it without a sign in. I honestly don't know how it works because i have never pursued it to the point of signing up, but if you are interested in having access to this book this might be a good option to look into.
https://www.academia.edu/23350430/THE_JAVANESE_KRIS

[Interested Party]

Max, I can't wait to see pictures of the keris after you give it some love!

Alan, daphor Bandhotan? Is this specific to 11 lok? I haven't found any information on it. Does it have something to do with a knot of protection, bandha in Sanskrit? Thanks for the Echols & Shadily suggestion. I don't know why I hadn't thought of that. I can find all three books (EK, EBN, and The Javanese Kris), I just would like to find copies for less. The $100 price range that David mentioned would be nice.

David, the academia.edu has seemed interesting before. On the down side they want your contacts from google or facebook. Unfortunately 40 pages doesn't get to daphor or pamor. Beyond that it seems like a subscription is necessary. I am liking bookfinder.com.

[A. G. Maisey]

"Bandhotan" is a kind of snake.

I know nothing about this dhapur, in fact i did not even know it existed until I looked it up, I only knew "bandhotan" as a tombak dhapur, that has a naga head at each side of its base, the naga bodies twine together and form the odo-odo. The tombak is luk 7.

I think there is possibly one of the Karaton Jogja pusakas that is bandhotan, but I don't know if it is a keris or a tombak.

In the SKA pakem keris bandhotan has 11 luk, but it is pretty widespread practice that if a waved keris agrees with a known dhapur in all except the number of waves it is acceptable to give it as that dhapur + the number of luk, so FX, Keris Dhapur Bandhotan Luk Lima for a keris that has ricikan that agrees to bandhotan, but only 5 luk.

I'm a member of Academia.com, and I used to have the premium pay membership, I dropped that pay membership because I began to get a bit annoyed with Academia, they send you a message every time your name gets mentioned in some publication or other, but regrettably there are several people who have the same name that I do, there's a marine biologist, a 19th century English historian, and others that have a name that is close enough to my name for their little machine to think we're the same person.

It doesn't even stop there, I think I've been sent well over 100 notifications of genuine mentions of my name in some paper or book or other, when I have already seen that mention. Only today I got advised for the umpteenth time that my name is mentioned in a South Sulawesi archaeology paper, it is a genuine mention, but they've told me many more times than once. It is very annoying getting continual emails that do not relate to anything that you might have done, or multiple emails that relate to something you have done.

But it is a twin edged sword, because you get sent publications that are mostly relevant to your own field and that you can download. I have about 200 academic papers that I have downloaded thanks to what gets sent to me from Academia, these are not all keris related papers but they are related to other stuff I'm involved in. I'd say that on balance it is certainly worth joining, but don't get sucked in to the "pay" version.

[Mickey the Finn]

Over the years, I've become wary of giving out any of my email addresses for the privelege of access to this or that website. Last autumn I let my guard down for access to academia.org; in retrospect, I may have made a mistake.
I didn't even get a paid membership, but the amount of spam email I get regarding papers only marginally relevant to the topics I originally signed up to read about has got to be among the worst I've ever been plagued by. Every time I log into my email I have to delete dozens of their bothersome notifications. I'm considering blocking all emails from them, but the annoyance factor hasn't yet reached the tipping point for me.
As for keris books... I'm still less-than-actively searching for a Danish-English dictionary to help with Tammens. For books in Bahasa Indonesia, I make do with Tuttle's Concise Indonesian-English Dictionary. I've found it to be quite adequate to "get the gist" of Ensiklopedi Keris, for the most part. Some other keris books contain more words which I suspect are Javanese, or perhaps quite specialized, or of the nature of a "calque"-a "shoe word", or a term which would be understood by native speakers of B.I.
English language books about keris aren't too numerous.
My unlearned opinion is that it is of vital importance and of inestimable value to access online resources written in Bahasa Indonesia, even if such access is gotten through the medium of a translation program. One can learn very much keris lore if one is willing to put in the effort to do the "homework", as it were, and if one has the patience to sort through the "hoo-hah" and sometimes contradictory accounts. Does dhapur jarang goyang make you a chick magnet and/or as virile as a young stallion, or is there an altogether different kebatinan/filsafat? Along the way, you may learn different methods of measuring a keris to determine if you are compatible with it, about the mystical link between the Sultan of Jogjakarta and the Queen of the South, about why a Javanese groom often has a string of flowers draped over the warangka of his keris, about flying keris and disembodied flying heads, the identifying characteristics of certain kinds of "bad iron" used to forge keris. A keris forged of one memorable kind of iron will cause it's owner to become stupid, wasteful, and hated by his boss! You'll learn which pamor will enable you to always be able to find cheap food, which pamor will cause you to never own a home, the bad iron or pamor which will cause your wife to cuckold you, and the pamors which will cause your subordinates to obey you without question or enable you to become friends with almost anyone you meet! You may be able to piece together the reason why one author warns against kissing a keris or smelling it's fragrance [allegedly, doing so may cause your lips and/or nose to fester and rot away!] Much of this information I've only found in Indonesian language sources. English language sources do not discuss the esoteric aspects of keris in anything approaching the extent to which Indonesian sources do.

[A. G. Maisey]

I was going to comment on this post of yours Mickey, but I think I've already said what I wanted to say in my post to your "scribd.com" thread.

But I will say this:- just because something has been written in Bahasa Indonesia this does not give it any special value. Everything you read needs to be questioned and cross checked. But then my own objectives are perhaps a little different to those of most people who have a keris interest, so possibly such a stringent approach is not justified for many other people.

For somebody with a beginning keris interest there are a few books that are worth the time to read. I'm pretty sure that they have been mentioned here previously not once, but a number of times.

Once a basic understanding has been achieved it becomes easier to identify the precise areas of understanding, belief & knowledge that one would wish to devote time to.

[jagabuwana]

Originally Posted by Mickey the Finn

sometimes contradictory accounts. Does dhapur jarang goyang make you a chick magnet and/or as virile as a young stallion, or is there an altogether different kebatinan/filsafat?

I've not heard of this dhapur but if it does what it describes on the label, maybe it should be renamed to sering goyang.

[A. G. Maisey]

The post that previously occupied this space was poorly worded, it was inaccurately put together and misleading.

Speed kills.

I'm driving slower this time, hopefully I can produce something sensible.

Mickey wrote:-

Does dhapur jarang goyang make you a chick magnet and/or as virile as a young stallion, or is there an altogether different kebatinan/filsafat?

To which Jaga responded:-

--- maybe it should be renamed to sering goyang.


"Jarang goyang" if read as Indonesian means "seldom shake".
"jarang" = seldom, "goyang" - shake

However, if read as Javanese "jarang" means hot water, or more precisely boiling water, and it has a minor or regional meaning that is similar to the Indonesian "seldom".

In Javanese "goyang" has the same meaning as in Indonesian.

I think that most Javanese reading "jarang goyang" would probably read it as "boiling water shake". I just ran this past a couple of Javanese native speakers and asked them to understand it as Javanese and I was told that it doesn't really make sense.

Jaga read "jarang goyang" as Bahasa Indonesia and understood it as "seldom shake" (or similar) and replied in Bahasa Indonesia with "sering goyang", "sering" means often/frequently.

OK, all well and good, but there is no keris dhapur named "jarang goyang".

The correct name is "jaran guyang".

This is Javanese, "jaran" is ngoko for "horse" ( it has secondary meanings, but in this keris context it is "horse".

The word "guyang" occurs in both ngoko & krama and it means bathing livestock (ngguyang = to bathe livestock)

However, in Javanese krama (high level) the word for horse is "kapal".

Some people call this dhapur "kapal guyang", but in ngoko and in Indonesian the word "kapal" means ship, and the word "guyang" can only be used in connection with livestock. So understood as ngoko it is senseless.

The Surakarta Pakem gives the name as "jaran guyang", and this pakem was issued under the aegis of the Karaton Surakarta, so I don't believe it is necessary to use the krama form of this keris name.

[Jean]

As a collector I am mainly interested to know that this dapur has 7 waves and is basically the only one without kembang kacang (see pic), and that it is suitable for seducers like myself...
Regards

[David]

Originally Posted by Mickey the Finn

As for keris books... I'm still less-than-actively searching for a Danish-English dictionary to help with Tammens.

Mickey, since Tammens was Dutch you may want to be looking for a Dutch-English dictionary, though since the majority of the Dutch in the 3 volumes of De Kris is also translated into English that probably isn't really necessary for understanding what is written.

[A. G. Maisey]

Jean, I cannot see clearly from the photo, but does your keris have a blumbangan that stops at a ridge, and perhaps a tikel alis, or does it merge into the body of the blade? Does it have the remnant of a greneng?


Compare with the example given in the SKA pakem.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Jean, I cannot see clearly from the photo, but does your keris have a blumbangan that stops at a ridge, and perhaps a tikel alis, or does it merge into the body of the blade? Does it have the remnant of a greneng?


Compare with the example given in the SKA pakem.

I'm sure Jean can tell you better with the keris in hand, but when i enlarge the image i think i can clearly see defined tikel alis and certainly remnants of greneng.

[Jean]

Yes gents, this is dapur jaran guyan "with minor exceptions", the tikel alis is vaguely carved, and the greneng is present but worn
Regards

[A. G. Maisey]

Jean, I'd say that if we were to use the SKA pakem as the benchmark, there are more than a few exceptions, but then again, this is really only Surakarta, maybe in Surabaya things are different, and I can find more than a few named dhapurs in that SKA pakem, that more than a few SKA keris people will disagree with.

But all the same, its nice to be able to say something and not generate too much disagreement. If I wanted to stick a name on this keris --- and believe me, I do not --- I'd be looking for a different dhapur but with either more or less luk, for example something that is normally a 9 luk, but I might have a keris exactly the same only it has 5 luk, so I would then name my keris with the same name a the 9 luk, but add "--- luk lima".

Nobody would argue with that.

Well, at least I don't think they would.

But we're talking keris here, anything can happen.

[Mickey the Finn]

I wasn't sure about the correct spelling of the name of the dhapur, so I Googled a couple of variants and went with the one which brought up the greater volume of results.
This perhaps very concisely "proves your point" [in a manner of speaking] in the scribd.com post.
Just because most results are spelled in a particular way, it doesn't mean that that is the correct way. Just because many people believe something, that doesn't mean it's true/correct/valid.
In my previous post in the present thread, I was about to touch on the volume and the quality of content of hard-copy keris books available in Bahasa Indonesia. Your scribd.com post explained it more clearly than I could have/ attempted to do.
It's 06:38 and I haven't slept in over 48 hours, so I'll close now, before I lose any more focus.
Mickey

Postscript: Alan, about your post in the present thread at 10:41 AM: I myself could argue with you [or at least express my disagreement], and I perhaps will, but in the future. Or I may ask for clarification, which may make argument or contention needless.

[A. G. Maisey]

Mickey, your 48 hour day is over, mine has just begun, it is 5.19am, and in ten minutes or so I start a 500km drive, and tomorrow the same. I'll explain when I get time, but briefly:- just about everything to do with keris is subject to variation of opinion.

[Mickey the Finn]

After some sober second thought, I've realized that I have no desire to argue with any member of this forum. I have no confidence in my ability to hold my own in a keris-related argument or debate with any of the regular contributors to this forum.
I should have asked for clarification first, instead of hastily voicing my willingness [and implying my "know-how"] to contend over a keris-related point.
Sincerely and Respectfully,
Mickey

[A. G. Maisey]

Mickey, I doubt that anybody actually argues here, we're civilised, we discuss, sometimes we pontificate, but we don't really argue, and I took your "argue" as just that, discussion.

I can recall arguments of many years past that were really pretty entertaining, and in all honesty I was sorry to see the argumentative people get on their bikes and ride away. I recall one continental gentleman who was inclined to challenge somebody or other to rapiers at dawn. I found it hilarious --- our mediators did not though.

But you've left me up in the air. May I enquire what it was that I wrote that raised a question in your mind?

[Mickey the Finn]

Alan, my "issue" is probably no more than a semantic one, a fussing over choice of words. And my choice of Bahasa Indonesia words will probably be found to be less than precise, and perhaps flat-out wrong. I once acquired a keris Bali luk 7 or 9 (I cannot remember which) billed as "dapur balebang", but it had a kembang kacang almost halfway down the wilah, and a greatly elongated gandik, like a keris kebo of some sort. I don't think it can rightly be named (menamai/menamakan) "dhapur balebang, but with an elongated gandik and a kembang kacang almost halfway down the wilah". It could perhaps be described (menggambarkan?) as "resembling (menyerupai?)dhapur balebang, but with an elongated gandik and a kembang kacang almost halfway down the wilah". I could be wrong, but I really don't think it's balebang. I don't know what dhapur it is.
To describe a person by their most distinguishing features is different from calling someone by their name.
I'm probably making "much ado about nothing", and I should have probably just kept quiet.
Sincerely and Respectfully,
Mickey

I'm going to...not quote verbatim, but give my recollection of the gist of something you once said... With enough time, which I currently don't have, as it's 04:01, I might be able to find the exact quote. I recall you saying something like "...if it deviates from the pakem in the slightest detail, it's not that dhapur".

[A. G. Maisey]

Sorry Mickey, I'm still a bit lost, however, I'll try expand a bit on what I wrote in Post 45.

The features that are considered to be correct for any particular dhapur can and do vary from place to place, from time to time, from keris study group to keris study group, and even from person to person.

We have one book that was issued under the aegis of the Surakarta Karaton that lists a large number of keris & tombak dhapurs, and I think probably most collectors tend to accept that book as the authority in so far as Javanese dhapurs are concerned. The general attitude is that unless the features of a keris match those listed in this "Surakarta Pakem" (a "pakem" is a guidebook, no more , no less) then that keris is "diluar pakem" and cannot really be considered to be any specific dhapur.

But the problem is this:- that guide book is really only valid in Surakarta, if you go down the road a bit to Ngayogyakarta you find that many keris literate people there will disagree with some of the material in the Surakarta Pakem.

Not only that, but if we work through the Surakarta Pakem, dhapur by dhapur, we will find that some of dhapurs shown and described in that Surakarta Pakem do not agree with the present day broad understanding of the name for each dhapur.

Then if we go across to Malang in East Jawa we find different opinions again. Go from Malang down to Surabaya we find more difference of opinion --- and so on, and so on, and so on.

The situation in respect of dhapur is repeated with pamor names.

It is repeated in respect of tuah.

There is very little about the names of various things associated with keris that is universal. This is why I coined the term "The Name Game" something like 40 or 50 years ago when I began to understand that virtually nothing about the keris is carved in stone. Everything varies.

Just as the simple, straightforward things like names vary, so do the beliefs.

Then, when we dig just a little below the surface we find that all those strange names that we took so much trouble to learn, mean absolutely nothing, they are red herrings that are intended to hide the true meanings.

The more we dig, the more we find that we have spent X number of years learning irrelevant names, ideas and concepts.

When we finally begin to come to some sort of a limited understanding of the keris we realise that what we thought we knew was not even the beginning of a true understanding of the keris.

But then again, not many people want to gain an understanding, most people simply want to gain a grab bag full of meaningless names so that they can classify and record. This is the essence of true collecting, and there is nothing wrong with that. But it has precious little to do with an understanding of the keris.

My personal opinion is that we are all entitled to our own opinion.

My principal teacher was Empu Suparman Supowijoyo. I knew him for more than 15 years and he taught me as much about the keris as I was able to absorb from him. His attitude was that only the Surakarta beliefs associated with the keris could be regarded as true knowledge, because those beliefs were guided by the Surakarta Karaton, which was the Senior Karaton, and in fact the only true Karaton in Jawa. If anything came from any other source it was wrong. No two ways about it.

I never, ever disagreed in even the smallest degree with Empu Suparman.

Even if I may have held a somewhat different opinion about something.

For as long as I have held a keris interest I have bought every book and booklet and pamphlet about keris that I could get my hands on; I have photo copies of a lot of other published and unpublished material, including everything about the keris that is held by the Mangkunegaraan Library in Solo.

However, what I have found is that most of this printed matter has not been of much use to me. I don't think I'm alone in this. During the 1970's through to the beginning of this century, perhaps the most frequent comment I heard from keris people in Solo was more or less:-

"it is a pity that people who write books about keris do not bother to learn about keris before they write"

the core keris beliefs in Central Jawa were always transmitted verbally, not in writing.

And these core beliefs vary.

Which makes argument and debate about the "correct name" for anything to do with the keris a pretty pointless exercise.

EDIT

On variation of ricikan.

Just a comment about my quote on legitimacy of a dhapur.

Mickey, you probably have quoted me correctly, I have said similar things for years, and still do, but that can only ever apply in the context of an accepted pakem, Surakarta or otherwise.

I usually don't speak or write an explanation of this along with the comment, because I expect the person I am addressing to understand this.

Probably if I know I'm addressing somebody who has not yet come to an understanding of the variability in keris belief & terminology I might give a very brief explanation, but usually I do not consider this necessary --- I don't really like to go on & on repeating the same things.

[Mickey the Finn]

Just a comment about my quote on legitimacy of a dhapur.

Mickey, you probably have quoted me correctly, I have said similar things for years, and still do, but that can only ever apply in the context of an accepted pakem, Surakarta or otherwise.

I usually don't speak or write an explanation of this along with the comment, because I expect the person I am addressing to understand this.

Probably if I know I'm addressing somebody who has not yet come to an understanding of the variability in keris belief & terminology I might give a very brief explanation, but usually I do not consider this necessary --- I don't really like to go on & on repeating the same things.

I know. I think of you, very generally speaking, as a "Surakarta guy". I'm not saying that I think you can always be counted on to be the voice of Keraton Surakarta Hadiningrat at this forum.

Some of my more serious problems in life may be taking for granted that (some, not all) other people "know what I mean" and understand "where I'm coming from" when I say something, and assuming that other people have the same perspective as I do. I make ambiguous statements, and I've never entered into a "lets define terms" session before discussing anything with anyone.

At a forum I frequented about 20 years ago, I remember one guy wrote a lengthy post decrying the habit of other members of posting dissertation style rebuttals to posts they disagreed with, and stated his preference for my habit of simply posting "Nah" in response to something I disagreed with.
I don't have time to preface posts with explanations of what I know, believe, and/or assume, and unfortunately, I also don't have time to set forth those things which I wish my reader(s) to know that I understand and/or am aware of, those things which I assume they will understand, how I expect them to take what I say etc.

It has happened again. It's 05:08 and I just don't have much more time to continue this post.

Alan, I've read many of your posts, including many from long before I first started ghosting at this forum. Many of your posts [as well as many of the posts of other people] are way over my head. My understanding of other statements which I believe I comprehend may be completely wrong.
I think I've wasted a whole lot of my time writing this post, but I've sunk too much time into it now to not post it. I ask that you take all of what I've said at face value, ie: nothing more than words on a screen. When I have more time...

Sincerely and Respectfully,
Mickey

[A. G. Maisey]

All clear, all understood Mickey. I think that perhaps what you have written reflects the position of many of us, and possibly humanity in general.

As to me being a Surakarta guy.

Most of the time I have spent in Indonesia has been spent in Surakarta. I have relatives living in Surakarta, I used to have business interests in Surakarta, most of my Indonesian friends come from Surakarta, all except one of my keris teachers were from Surakarta.

With that sort of background I think it is pretty correct to classify me as being orientated towards Surakarta. But you're dead right, I am most certainly not the voice of the Karaton Surakarta. I have not now, nor at any time in the past had any official association with the Karaton Surakarta, and the situation that has prevailed in respect of that kraton since the passing of PBXII fills me with sadness. Currently I would not want to be associated with it.

However, my principal teacher of the keris was absolutely committed to the Karaton Surakarta and it is inevitable that my own standards and attitudes have been influenced by this.

But putting this personal position of mine to one side, any objective examination of the history and politics of Jawa for the last, say, 800 years cannot produce any conclusion other than that the senior branch of the House of Mataram is the Surakarta Branch of that House, and as such must represent the definitive standard of what it means to be Javanese.

And I will leave the final sentence of this post unwritten.

[jagabuwana]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

But putting this personal position of mine to one side, any objective examination of the history and politics of Jawa for the last, say, 800 years cannot produce any conclusion other than that the senior branch of the House of Mataram is the Surakarta Branch of that House, and as such must represent the definitive standard of what it means to be Javanese.

Should there be any representatives of Kasultanan Ngayogyakarta among us, I look forward to dawn rapier duel in the Warung Kopi parking lot.

[A. G. Maisey]

He who fights has already lost.

[Mickey the Finn]

I had been cosidering, while suffering from non-COVID related illness over the past 7 days, about making a post pertaining to D.I. Yogyakarta, Letjen Soedirman and other loosely connected topics, but I'll hold off, perhaps indefinitely.
And thoughts of rapiers at dawn had crossed my mind, as well... But I don't own a single one. The closest thing I have is an Indian-made copy of an AN XIII cuirassier sabre/ pallasch/ call it what you will.
And as I've said before, if it isn't cricket, it's just not cricket, Old Boy. And besides, Robert Mugabe is said to have said "Cricket civilizes people and creates good gentlemen". If this is the case, then surely differences of opinion can be settled in a less sanguinary manner. And I'm neither implying nor denying that any difference of opinion exists.
Surakarta is certainly the senior branch of the House of Mataram. This is a fact which is beyond dispute.
You're a very magnanimous man, Alan Maisey.
Sincerely and Respectfully,
Mickey