The British Broad Arrow Mark

Fernando K · 4th February 2021, 07:56 PM

Hi there

just or for a question. I have read somewhere about the origin of the "broad arrow". The deer, which roamed freely in England, were owned by the Crown (Like our horses and wild cows, in Argentina, called for that "reyunos"). To hunt them, an arrow with a wide iron was used. The archer who was found with this arrow was hanged with the string of his own bow. Is that?

Will M · 4th February 2021, 08:24 PM

Fernando that's an interesting theory. Certainly wide arrowheads are made to hit arteries and bleed the animal before it runs too far away, the same reason we use them today.
Steel was a valuable commodity and placing govt. marks on the products would make selling or having it in your possession a dangerous thing. I would think the average person would not have access to steel files or other means of removing the arrow marking.

adrian · 4th February 2021, 08:45 PM

Does anyone know when the broad arrow was first used on weapons to signify government ownership?

During the reign of of Queen Anne, the Rose and Crown mark was replaced by the Crown and Crossed Sceptres mark, and the Royal Cypher had a broad arrow added underneath. (Ref H.L. Blackmore, "British Military Firearms 1650-1850". p265.) So it seems accepted that the arrow appears of firearms from the very early 1700's. In "The Brown Bess" by Goldstein & Mowbray they depict a style of early crowned arrow stamp used from from 1706-11.

I have a heavily restored musket of King William's reign, it has a no arrows at all and a paper written by David Williams "The Flintlock Ordnance Muskets of William III and their Supply" includes a description of their markings (ten muskets were used for his study) and there is no mention of an arrow used to lock, stock or barrel. King William III died in 1702 & his wife Ann became queen, this supports the evidence that the arrow appears, on firearms, during Queen Ann's reign.

Jim McDougall · 4th February 2021, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adrian

Does anyone know when the broad arrow was first used on weapons to signify government ownership?

During the reign of of Queen Anne, the Rose and Crown mark was replaced by the Crown and Crossed Sceptres mark, and the Royal Cypher had a broad arrow added underneath. (Ref H.L. Blackmore, "British Military Firearms 1650-1850". p265.) So it seems accepted that the arrow appears of firearms from the very early 1700's. In "The Brown Bess" by Goldstein & Mowbray they depict a style of early crowned arrow stamp used from from 1706-11.

I have a heavily restored musket of King William's reign, it has a no arrows at all and a paper written by David Williams "The Flintlock Ordnance Muskets of William III and their Supply" includes a description of their markings (ten muskets were used for his study) and there is no mention of an arrow used to lock, stock or barrel. King William III died in 1702 & his wife Ann became queen, this supports the evidence that the arrow appears, on firearms, during Queen Ann's reign.

Excellent entry Adrian!!! We crossed posts

CutlassCollector · 4th February 2021, 09:28 PM

That's great info guys. Obviously my knowledge of firearms is limited so thanks Corrado and Fernando for the pistol markings. The crown and cypher are obviously not necessarily exclusive of the broad arrow.

And great cannon ball Will.

CC

CutlassCollector · 4th February 2021, 09:44 PM

And thanks Jim and Adrian for your great research that really pushes the date back for firearms to the early 1700s and still earlier for general use. That pretty much agrees with Corrado's estimate.

Nice screw Fernando! Apparently the British government even marked trees with the broad arrow in North America which were suitable for masts and claimed for government use. No doubt indicating to the colonists which ones they would get the most enjoyment out of cutting down for firewood.

CutlassCollector · 4th February 2021, 09:57 PM

Fernando K and Will - yes according to Wiki it does seem to be a stylised representation of a metal arrow head. The symbol pointing down is used in English heraldry. And I guess the link may well be the royal sport of deer hunting.

Does anyone have any swords marked with the arrow?

Regards,
David.

fernando · 5th February 2021, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adrian

Does anyone know when the broad arrow was first used on weapons to signify government ownership?

During the reign of of Queen Anne, the Rose and Crown mark was replaced by the Crown and Crossed Sceptres mark, and the Royal Cypher had a broad arrow added underneath. (Ref H.L. Blackmore, "British Military Firearms 1650-1850". p265.) So it seems accepted that the arrow appears of firearms from the very early 1700's. In "The Brown Bess" by Goldstein & Mowbray they depict a style of early crowned arrow stamp used from from 1706-11.

I have a heavily restored musket of King William's reign, it has a no arrows at all and a paper written by David Williams "The Flintlock Ordnance Muskets of William III and their Supply" includes a description of their markings (ten muskets were used for his study) and there is no mention of an arrow used to lock, stock or barrel. King William III died in 1702 & his wife Ann became queen, this supports the evidence that the arrow appears, on firearms, during Queen Ann's reign.

So it does, Adrian

.

.

kronckew · 5th February 2021, 04:03 PM

An Order in Council of 1664, relating to the requisitioning of merchant ships for naval use, similarly authorised the Commissioners of the Navy "to put the broad arrow on any ship in the River they had a mind to hire, and fit them out for sea"; while the Embezzlement of Public Stores Act 1697 (9 Will. 3, c. 41) sought to prevent the theft of military and naval property by prohibiting anyone other than official contractors from marking "any Stores of War or Naval Stores whatsoever, with the Marks usually used to and marked upon His Majesties said Warlike and Naval or Ordnance Stores; ... [including] any other Stores with the Broad Arrow by Stamp Brand or otherwise".

This implies it was 'usually used' on ordinance stores for a fair amount of time previous to the 1697 date.

fernando · 5th February 2021, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

... An Order in Council of 1664, relating to the requisitioning of merchant ships for naval use, similarly authorised the Commissioners of the Navy "to put the broad arrow on any ship in the River they had a mind to hire, and fit them out for sea"...

Would hou say Wayne that, the marking with the broad arrow (AKA crows foot) on military 'equipment' started at a first stage (1600's), and only much later this procedure was extended to actual weapons, like swords and firearms ?

.

fernando · 5th February 2021, 05:23 PM

Here is another 1804 pattern cutlass marked with the broad arrow. Assuming that this pattern has only ceased being made circa 1845 (?), in this case the example shown has its actual production date limited to prior to 1807 as its blade spine is signed by BATE, who became Reddell & Bate during 1806.

.

Jim McDougall · 5th February 2021, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Would hou say Wayne that, the marking with the broad arrow (AKA crows foot) on military 'equipment' started at a first stage (1600's), and only much later this procedure was extended to actual weapons, like swords and firearms ?

.

As Adrian and I had suggested (posts 14,15) the use of the broad arrow as a government mark goes back to the 1300s, but do not seem to have extended from 'materials' to weapons until the time of Queen Anne (1702-14) in any notable degree.
From what I found and posted earlier is that artillery (including cannon balls as shown by Will) seems to have the arrow earlier in the 17th.

The markings seem to appear on gun locks in the early 18th, but as I had noted, swords being mostly privately secured (though proved by officials) did not have the arrow. Some swords (naval cutlasses as noted by CC) had the GR mark on the blade, but other rank and file just had makers names.

CutlassCollector · 5th February 2021, 05:48 PM

Thanks everyone for the input.

So summing up - broad arrow on firearms definitely go back to Queen Anne's reign which started in 1707.
For cannon it seems even earlier and perhaps through the 17th century.
For stores and equipment and to indicate ownership of everything from screws, to cannonballs perhaps much earlier.

Swords were purchased privately by regimental colonels until around 1788 which explains why swords are not generally marked with the broad arrow. But did this change in the 19th century when presumably the BO took over the purchase of swords?

The arrow started appearing on cutlasses around the middle of the 19th century, both with BO and the later WD marks. Wayne - I can't explain the arrow on your 1804 unless both were applied at the same time when it was taken out of service.

Scinde thanks for the info on the E. I. Co and I attach a picture of a Mole cutlass with the I for India mark. I guess that dates it to around the 1855.

Regards,
David

fernando · 5th February 2021, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CutlassCollector

... The arrow started appearing on cutlasses around the middle of the 19th century ...

Maybe in early 19th century. Are you considering my recent post 26#, David ?

.

4th February 2021, 08:45 PM	#3
adrian Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 135	Does anyone know when the broad arrow was first used on weapons to signify government ownership? During the reign of of Queen Anne, the Rose and Crown mark was replaced by the Crown and Crossed Sceptres mark, and the Royal Cypher had a broad arrow added underneath. (Ref H.L. Blackmore, "British Military Firearms 1650-1850". p265.) So it seems accepted that the arrow appears of firearms from the very early 1700's. In "The Brown Bess" by Goldstein & Mowbray they depict a style of early crowned arrow stamp used from from 1706-11. I have a heavily restored musket of King William's reign, it has a no arrows at all and a paper written by David Williams "The Flintlock Ordnance Muskets of William III and their Supply" includes a description of their markings (ten muskets were used for his study) and there is no mention of an arrow used to lock, stock or barrel. King William III died in 1702 & his wife Ann became queen, this supports the evidence that the arrow appears, on firearms, during Queen Ann's reign. Last edited by adrian; 4th February 2021 at 09:05 PM.

5th February 2021, 05:23 PM	#11
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Here is another 1804 pattern cutlass marked with the broad arrow. Assuming that this pattern has only ceased being made circa 1845 (?), in this case the example shown has its actual production date limited to prior to 1807 as its blade spine is signed by BATE, who became Reddell & Bate during 1806. . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 5th February 2021 at 06:05 PM.

5th February 2021, 05:48 PM	#13
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 368	Thanks everyone for the input. So summing up - broad arrow on firearms definitely go back to Queen Anne's reign which started in 1707. For cannon it seems even earlier and perhaps through the 17th century. For stores and equipment and to indicate ownership of everything from screws, to cannonballs perhaps much earlier. Swords were purchased privately by regimental colonels until around 1788 which explains why swords are not generally marked with the broad arrow. But did this change in the 19th century when presumably the BO took over the purchase of swords? The arrow started appearing on cutlasses around the middle of the 19th century, both with BO and the later WD marks. Wayne - I can't explain the arrow on your 1804 unless both were applied at the same time when it was taken out of service. Scinde thanks for the info on the E. I. Co and I attach a picture of a Mole cutlass with the I for India mark. I guess that dates it to around the 1855. Regards, David Attached Images

4th February 2021, 07:56 PM	#1
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 672	Hi there just or for a question. I have read somewhere about the origin of the "broad arrow". The deer, which roamed freely in England, were owned by the Crown (Like our horses and wild cows, in Argentina, called for that "reyunos"). To hunt them, an arrow with a wide iron was used. The archer who was found with this arrow was hanged with the string of his own bow. Is that?

4th February 2021, 08:24 PM	#2
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 395	Fernando that's an interesting theory. Certainly wide arrowheads are made to hit arteries and bleed the animal before it runs too far away, the same reason we use them today. Steel was a valuable commodity and placing govt. marks on the products would make selling or having it in your possession a dangerous thing. I would think the average person would not have access to steel files or other means of removing the arrow marking.

4th February 2021, 09:28 PM	#5
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 368	That's great info guys. Obviously my knowledge of firearms is limited so thanks Corrado and Fernando for the pistol markings. The crown and cypher are obviously not necessarily exclusive of the broad arrow. And great cannon ball Will. CC

4th February 2021, 09:44 PM	#6
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 368	And thanks Jim and Adrian for your great research that really pushes the date back for firearms to the early 1700s and still earlier for general use. That pretty much agrees with Corrado's estimate. Nice screw Fernando! Apparently the British government even marked trees with the broad arrow in North America which were suitable for masts and claimed for government use. No doubt indicating to the colonists which ones they would get the most enjoyment out of cutting down for firewood.

4th February 2021, 09:57 PM	#7
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 368	Fernando K and Will - yes according to Wiki it does seem to be a stylised representation of a metal arrow head. The symbol pointing down is used in English heraldry. And I guess the link may well be the royal sport of deer hunting. Does anyone have any swords marked with the arrow? Regards, David.

5th February 2021, 04:03 PM	#9
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,250	An Order in Council of 1664, relating to the requisitioning of merchant ships for naval use, similarly authorised the Commissioners of the Navy "to put the broad arrow on any ship in the River they had a mind to hire, and fit them out for sea"; while the Embezzlement of Public Stores Act 1697 (9 Will. 3, c. 41) sought to prevent the theft of military and naval property by prohibiting anyone other than official contractors from marking "any Stores of War or Naval Stores whatsoever, with the Marks usually used to and marked upon His Majesties said Warlike and Naval or Ordnance Stores; ... [including] any other Stores with the Broad Arrow by Stamp Brand or otherwise". This implies it was 'usually used' on ordinance stores for a fair amount of time previous to the 1697 date.