Requesting Help!! Identifying the specifics of a Kris

David · 27th January 2021, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

Hello David,
This mendak which you showed us is in bejen style from Yogya (see Keris Jawa book page 281) so not really suitable for this kris...

Regards

Yes Jean, thanks, i am aware of that. LOL!
As i just explained to Asomotif, i was simply posting a any Jawa/Madura style mendak to demonstrate that the one on the OP's keris was squashed. This is an Eat Javanese keris and Max should seek a mendak that is more appropriate for this kind of keris. Of course, from what i can see of what is left of the mendak on the keris in question, it does not look like it was the proper mendak to begin with. Which is why i wrote " I cannot be sure of the exact style this mendak is, as there are many variations, but this mendak probably looked something like the one i have posted below."
So please excuse my laziness for not researching proper East Jawa mendaks suitable for this ensemble, but that was not my intended point at the time. If max would like to find a mendak more suitable for this ensemble he should probably be looking for ones in these variations.

Jean · 27th January 2021, 07:33 PM

Yes David, these are very good and suitable pieces! I intended to show some pieces but did'nt as I got very few spares

A. G. Maisey · 27th January 2021, 11:54 PM

Please refer post #14 & #17

In post #14 David has shown a mendak that Jean in post #17 has identified as "bejen" Jogja (Ngayogyakarta) style.

Jean's reference is Haryoguritno "Keris Jawa".

About this style of mendak.

On Page 39 of Solyom "World of the Javanese Keris" this style of mendak is identified as "parijoto" style. As to whether the mendak shown in post #14 is Jogja style or Solo style, there are minor differences only in Solo & Jogya styles, and it would be necessary to have the actual mendak in hand before it would be possible to state definitively whether it was suited to a Jogja keris or a Solo keris. My personal opinion based upon the photograph is that this current production mendak in Post #14 would probably prove to be better suited to use on a Solo hilt than on a Jogja hilt.

A further comment in passing:- in my experience, this current production mendak would be fabricated (ie, built of several separate pieces)it would not be produced from either a single die nor would it be cast. However, some of those separate parts could have been produced from dies, this is standard practice in the trade and has been for a very long time.

Solyom identifies this mendak style as parijoto, I also identify it as parijoto, both Solyom and I gained most of our Javanese terminology from Surakarta (Solo).

Haryoguritno spells "parijoto" as "parijatha" (see HG page 280).

In fact, "parijoto" is two words:- "pari + joto", it means "swollen rice grains", ie, not cooked rice grains, cooked rice is or "sega" (Ng) or "sekul" (Kr.), but it is dry rice ("pari") that has become wet & thus swollen.

The word used by Haryoguritno , "parijatha", is the name of a little bush that has yellow berries, these berries have a medicinal purpose, I'm not sure what that is, but it is something to do with pregnancy & child bearing. I'm afraid that Haryoguritno got it wrong in this case --- or more probably his informant got it wrong.

There is another problem with Haryoguritno's identification also.
He identifies the mendak style in post #14 as "bejen". In fact the spelling is not "bejen", but "pecen".

The word "pecen" comes from the word "peci" ("pici"), and can be understood as "like a peci", whilst this mendak style is not precisely similar to a peci, it is very similar to a fez (tarbus), so as with many terms used in the keris world we have an oblique reference. Again, Solyom appears to draw exactly the same line of connection as I was taught to draw.

I believe this term of "peci" for the Indonesian national black velvet cap was made popular by Sukarno, the other names for it are "songkok" and "kopiah". The name "kopiah" can be found (with various transliterations) in Old Javanese and appears to date from Majapahit times when it referred to a black three cornered cap worn by warriors, and until now as formal wear for a warrior. "Songkok" is I believe more Malay usage.

In Solo, a "pecen" style mendak must be set with stones.

The mendak shown by David in post #14 is not pecen style, it is parijoto style and it is more likely to be suited to a Surakarta (Solo) hilt than to a Ngayogyakarta (Jogja) hilt.

David · 28th January 2021, 06:19 PM

Thanks Alan. This shows that even my lazy posting of the first mendak i could find just to show thickness can still be turned into a teaching moment. LOL!

Jean · 29th January 2021, 08:59 AM

Hello Alan,
Both the EK (page 350) and the book keris Jawa (page 280) show a mendak model called parijata with peripheral balls of larger size than David's specimen and attributed to Solo, but the mendak shown by David with smaller balls is a different model in my opinion.
And in page 39 of the book "The Javanese kris" the "parijoto" model 119 with small balls is attributed to Yogya (120 also?), and model 121 with large balls is attributed to Surakarta.
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 29th January 2021, 11:25 AM

Thank you for your comments Jean.

I have not the smallest difficulty in acknowledging that you have every right to your own opinion, Jean. This is the wonderful thing about the Keris:- there is room for everybody to hold an opinion.

However, I am unable to know from a photograph if a mendak is suited to fit to a Solo hilt, or a Jogja hilt.

What I have learned about the parijoto mendak style is this:- any mendak of normal height that has balls of whatever size running around its middle is a parijoto style mendak:- the size of the balls is totally irrelevant.

The mendak shown by David is unquestionably parijoto, but whether it is suited to a Solo hilt or a Jogja hilt I have absolutely no way of knowing.

In the matter of deciding whether a mendak is correct for mating with a Jogja hilt, or with a Solo hilt, the single most important thing is the size of the mendak, not the size of the balls. Usually the base of a Jogja hilt is smaller than the base of a Solo hilt, design differences between Solo & Jogja mendak can exist, but they also overlap, and what needs to be done is match the mendak to the hilt. A mendak that is intended for a Jogja hilt will usually be too small for a Solo hilt, a mendak intended for a Solo hilt will usually be to large for a Jogja hilt. It is totally impossible to know from a photo whether or not a particular mendak will fit a particular hilt unless you have them both in hand, or you know their measurements.

Jean, I think the reference you mean is "The World of the Javanese Keris" ? Solyom?

On page 39 of this book there are 4 different styles of parijoto mendak shown, the common feature which makes all of them "parijoto" is that they all have a ring of balls running around their middles. It is that ring of balls that makes them "parijoto".

Now, Solyom has identified where they were collected, and possibly what hilt they will fit, but we can only take Garrett's word for it, because we do not have anything in the photos to compare them with, nor do we have them in front of us. It is diameter and overall size that determines whether a mendak is correct for a Solo hilt, or a Jogja hilt. The size of the balls, and even the shape of the balls, has nothing at all to do with it.

But still, I must admit, I am a bit particular about details like having a hilt fitted with the mendak that is correct for it, and in fact, the differences between Solo & Jogja mendak are only marginal, so I guess anybody can fit whatever they wish with anything else, if they are happy to do this.

Jean · 29th January 2021, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Thank you for your comments Jean.

I have not the smallest difficulty in acknowledging that you have every right to your own opinion, Jean.

The mendak shown by David is unquestionably parijoto, but whether it is suited to a Solo hilt or a Jogja hilt I have absolutely no way of knowing.

Hello Alan,
It is not my opinion but Haryoguritno's one who distinguishes between the 2 types of mendak, see pages 279 to 281 of the book "Keris Jawa" (and also in the EK pages 289 & 290).
Regards

29th January 2021, 08:59 AM	#5
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Hello Alan, Both the EK (page 350) and the book keris Jawa (page 280) show a mendak model called parijata with peripheral balls of larger size than David's specimen and attributed to Solo, but the mendak shown by David with smaller balls is a different model in my opinion. And in page 39 of the book "The Javanese kris" the "parijoto" model 119 with small balls is attributed to Yogya (120 also?), and model 121 with large balls is attributed to Surakarta. Regards Last edited by Jean; 29th January 2021 at 09:10 AM.

27th January 2021, 07:33 PM	#2
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Yes David, these are very good and suitable pieces! I intended to show some pieces but did'nt as I got very few spares

27th January 2021, 11:54 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,054	Please refer post #14 & #17 In post #14 David has shown a mendak that Jean in post #17 has identified as "bejen" Jogja (Ngayogyakarta) style. Jean's reference is Haryoguritno "Keris Jawa". About this style of mendak. On Page 39 of Solyom "World of the Javanese Keris" this style of mendak is identified as "parijoto" style. As to whether the mendak shown in post #14 is Jogja style or Solo style, there are minor differences only in Solo & Jogya styles, and it would be necessary to have the actual mendak in hand before it would be possible to state definitively whether it was suited to a Jogja keris or a Solo keris. My personal opinion based upon the photograph is that this current production mendak in Post #14 would probably prove to be better suited to use on a Solo hilt than on a Jogja hilt. A further comment in passing:- in my experience, this current production mendak would be fabricated (ie, built of several separate pieces)it would not be produced from either a single die nor would it be cast. However, some of those separate parts could have been produced from dies, this is standard practice in the trade and has been for a very long time. Solyom identifies this mendak style as parijoto, I also identify it as parijoto, both Solyom and I gained most of our Javanese terminology from Surakarta (Solo). Haryoguritno spells "parijoto" as "parijatha" (see HG page 280). In fact, "parijoto" is two words:- "pari + joto", it means "swollen rice grains", ie, not cooked rice grains, cooked rice is or "sega" (Ng) or "sekul" (Kr.), but it is dry rice ("pari") that has become wet & thus swollen. The word used by Haryoguritno , "parijatha", is the name of a little bush that has yellow berries, these berries have a medicinal purpose, I'm not sure what that is, but it is something to do with pregnancy & child bearing. I'm afraid that Haryoguritno got it wrong in this case --- or more probably his informant got it wrong. There is another problem with Haryoguritno's identification also. He identifies the mendak style in post #14 as "bejen". In fact the spelling is not "bejen", but "pecen". The word "pecen" comes from the word "peci" ("pici"), and can be understood as "like a peci", whilst this mendak style is not precisely similar to a peci, it is very similar to a fez (tarbus), so as with many terms used in the keris world we have an oblique reference. Again, Solyom appears to draw exactly the same line of connection as I was taught to draw. I believe this term of "peci" for the Indonesian national black velvet cap was made popular by Sukarno, the other names for it are "songkok" and "kopiah". The name "kopiah" can be found (with various transliterations) in Old Javanese and appears to date from Majapahit times when it referred to a black three cornered cap worn by warriors, and until now as formal wear for a warrior. "Songkok" is I believe more Malay usage. In Solo, a "pecen" style mendak must be set with stones. The mendak shown by David in post #14 is not pecen style, it is parijoto style and it is more likely to be suited to a Surakarta (Solo) hilt than to a Ngayogyakarta (Jogja) hilt.

28th January 2021, 06:19 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,231	Thanks Alan. This shows that even my lazy posting of the first mendak i could find just to show thickness can still be turned into a teaching moment. LOL!

29th January 2021, 11:25 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,054	Thank you for your comments Jean. I have not the smallest difficulty in acknowledging that you have every right to your own opinion, Jean. This is the wonderful thing about the Keris:- there is room for everybody to hold an opinion. However, I am unable to know from a photograph if a mendak is suited to fit to a Solo hilt, or a Jogja hilt. What I have learned about the parijoto mendak style is this:- any mendak of normal height that has balls of whatever size running around its middle is a parijoto style mendak:- the size of the balls is totally irrelevant. The mendak shown by David is unquestionably parijoto, but whether it is suited to a Solo hilt or a Jogja hilt I have absolutely no way of knowing. In the matter of deciding whether a mendak is correct for mating with a Jogja hilt, or with a Solo hilt, the single most important thing is the size of the mendak, not the size of the balls. Usually the base of a Jogja hilt is smaller than the base of a Solo hilt, design differences between Solo & Jogja mendak can exist, but they also overlap, and what needs to be done is match the mendak to the hilt. A mendak that is intended for a Jogja hilt will usually be too small for a Solo hilt, a mendak intended for a Solo hilt will usually be to large for a Jogja hilt. It is totally impossible to know from a photo whether or not a particular mendak will fit a particular hilt unless you have them both in hand, or you know their measurements. Jean, I think the reference you mean is "The World of the Javanese Keris" ? Solyom? On page 39 of this book there are 4 different styles of parijoto mendak shown, the common feature which makes all of them "parijoto" is that they all have a ring of balls running around their middles. It is that ring of balls that makes them "parijoto". Now, Solyom has identified where they were collected, and possibly what hilt they will fit, but we can only take Garrett's word for it, because we do not have anything in the photos to compare them with, nor do we have them in front of us. It is diameter and overall size that determines whether a mendak is correct for a Solo hilt, or a Jogja hilt. The size of the balls, and even the shape of the balls, has nothing at all to do with it. But still, I must admit, I am a bit particular about details like having a hilt fitted with the mendak that is correct for it, and in fact, the differences between Solo & Jogja mendak are only marginal, so I guess anybody can fit whatever they wish with anything else, if they are happy to do this.