Another old shibriya

Kubur · 9th January 2021, 03:05 PM

1925 and the blade is amazing

I'm sure Motan will tell you more...

kronckew · 9th January 2021, 06:31 PM

Excellent!

motan · 9th January 2021, 09:01 PM

Hi,
I did not expect THIS. It is a very good, interesting and (relatively) old shibriya, but it is also a puzzling one. I can not tell you too much because my experience with shibriyas is all from looking at many examples, but I have never seen one like this one.

The construction and technique are consistent with 1925 and Jordanian origin, but there are several features I am not sure about. First, I am not sure that the scabbard with the date is the original scabbard of the knife. It could very well be original, but usually some elements of the decoration are similar between the hilt and the scabbard and that is not the case here. The numbers could not be interpreted as anything but 1925, but they are badly written, with the numeral 2 on its side.
Further, the blade is remarkable. I have never seen a blade like this on a shibriya and experts I have asked haven't seen one either. Looks almost Indian. Shibriya blades can be different shape, but are always quite simple. Could it be an older blade from thousands of miles away? Is it an imitation of earlier style? I don't know, but I feel it makes Syrian origin more likely.

The writing says A'mal Khalil (made by Kalil, thanks to my friend Mahmoud for helping), but the word in the second row is unclear because the first letter is ambiguous. I added a pic of one that is similar in hilt shape. It belongs now to A.Alnakkas from the forum. Perhaps A.Alnakkas can join this conversation because he knows a lot about this subject. Thanks for showing it.
Eytan

Yvain · 9th January 2021, 09:52 PM

Thanks to all for your comments ! Seems like I was right to suggest it to my brother

Motan, thanks a lot for all this information ! I will take pictures tomorrow to illustrate what I'm about to say.

I do think that the sheath is original to the knife for the following reasons : the material (brass alloy) on the hilt and the sheath are indistinguishable, the hilt slides into the scabbard (approx. 1cm) with a very snug fit, and the border with a zigzag pattern surrounding the central motifs is similar on the sheath and the hilt.

The blade indeed does seem almost Indian inspired (chilanum ?), though I believe it was made in the Levant, as it looks good from a distance, but exhibits rather simple craftsmanship upon closer examination (especially at the end of the fullers).

Anyway, I will try to take details pictures tomorrow. Thanks a lot for your help, and to your friend Mahmoud for the translation ! I'm glad to put a name on who made this beautiful knife !

Kubur · 10th January 2021, 09:00 AM

Hi guys

I think that the blade and knife are consistent eg. 1925.

The blade is local as mentionned, and the fullers remind me

1/ Ottoman blades

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=shibriya

Such as your shibriya

2/ Caucasian blades

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=6959

Look at the Caucasian influence in Jordan

So, for me your shibriya has a Caucasian influence and probably from Jordan.

Kubur

Yvain · 10th January 2021, 10:30 AM

Hi everyone !

Here is the pictures I promised yesterday.

As you can see on the comparative picture, the border is in the same style, and most likely made with the same tool on the sheath and the hilt. If I could hazard a guess, I would suggest that the difference in style may be due in part to the material under the brass plate, soft white wood for the sheath, and tougher horn for the hilt, which may explain why the incisions are deeper on the sheath.

I also added a picture of the part of the hilt that slides into the sheath, and some pictures of the fullers showing some minor flaws in their shaping. (Also note that the two faces of the blade aren't symmetrical, which is nice but surprising.)

Kubur,

Thanks a lot for the links ! I definitely see the resemblance with the second shibriya in the first link !

motan · 18th January 2021, 10:40 PM

Hi,
Just one last time back to this thread in order to summarize.
I tend to agree with Kubur. The blade and the whole of Yvain's shibriya are probably Jordanian and from 1925.
The khanjarli look is only the result of the recurve shape in combination with deep fullers. The fullers themselves may be a caucasian influence, which is known from Jordan, or an imitation of much earlier Ottoman/Syrian dagger types which had this non-continuous type of fullers . Whichever is true, this is a very nice shibriya and this more complex, though not perfectly executed blade type is EXTREMELY rare.
The nice thing about this period in shibriya development (late 19th to WW2) is that there was no standardized or accepted style and the variation is enormous and include the best examples shibriyas in general.

9th January 2021, 09:01 PM	#3
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	Hi, I did not expect THIS. It is a very good, interesting and (relatively) old shibriya, but it is also a puzzling one. I can not tell you too much because my experience with shibriyas is all from looking at many examples, but I have never seen one like this one. The construction and technique are consistent with 1925 and Jordanian origin, but there are several features I am not sure about. First, I am not sure that the scabbard with the date is the original scabbard of the knife. It could very well be original, but usually some elements of the decoration are similar between the hilt and the scabbard and that is not the case here. The numbers could not be interpreted as anything but 1925, but they are badly written, with the numeral 2 on its side. Further, the blade is remarkable. I have never seen a blade like this on a shibriya and experts I have asked haven't seen one either. Looks almost Indian. Shibriya blades can be different shape, but are always quite simple. Could it be an older blade from thousands of miles away? Is it an imitation of earlier style? I don't know, but I feel it makes Syrian origin more likely. The writing says A'mal Khalil (made by Kalil, thanks to my friend Mahmoud for helping), but the word in the second row is unclear because the first letter is ambiguous. I added a pic of one that is similar in hilt shape. It belongs now to A.Alnakkas from the forum. Perhaps A.Alnakkas can join this conversation because he knows a lot about this subject. Thanks for showing it. Eytan Attached Images

10th January 2021, 10:30 AM	#6
Yvain Member Join Date: May 2017 Location: France Posts: 179	Hi everyone ! Here is the pictures I promised yesterday. As you can see on the comparative picture, the border is in the same style, and most likely made with the same tool on the sheath and the hilt. If I could hazard a guess, I would suggest that the difference in style may be due in part to the material under the brass plate, soft white wood for the sheath, and tougher horn for the hilt, which may explain why the incisions are deeper on the sheath. I also added a picture of the part of the hilt that slides into the sheath, and some pictures of the fullers showing some minor flaws in their shaping. (Also note that the two faces of the blade aren't symmetrical, which is nice but surprising.) Kubur, Thanks a lot for the links ! I definitely see the resemblance with the second shibriya in the first link ! Attached Images

9th January 2021, 03:05 PM	#1
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	1925 and the blade is amazing I'm sure Motan will tell you more...

9th January 2021, 06:31 PM	#2
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	Excellent!

9th January 2021, 09:52 PM	#4
Yvain Member Join Date: May 2017 Location: France Posts: 179	Thanks to all for your comments ! Seems like I was right to suggest it to my brother Motan, thanks a lot for all this information ! I will take pictures tomorrow to illustrate what I'm about to say. I do think that the sheath is original to the knife for the following reasons : the material (brass alloy) on the hilt and the sheath are indistinguishable, the hilt slides into the scabbard (approx. 1cm) with a very snug fit, and the border with a zigzag pattern surrounding the central motifs is similar on the sheath and the hilt. The blade indeed does seem almost Indian inspired (chilanum ?), though I believe it was made in the Levant, as it looks good from a distance, but exhibits rather simple craftsmanship upon closer examination (especially at the end of the fullers). Anyway, I will try to take details pictures tomorrow. Thanks a lot for your help, and to your friend Mahmoud for the translation ! I'm glad to put a name on who made this beautiful knife !

10th January 2021, 09:00 AM	#5
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Hi guys I think that the blade and knife are consistent eg. 1925. The blade is local as mentionned, and the fullers remind me 1/ Ottoman blades http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=shibriya Such as your shibriya 2/ Caucasian blades http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=6959 Look at the Caucasian influence in Jordan So, for me your shibriya has a Caucasian influence and probably from Jordan. Kubur

18th January 2021, 10:40 PM	#7
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	Hi, Just one last time back to this thread in order to summarize. I tend to agree with Kubur. The blade and the whole of Yvain's shibriya are probably Jordanian and from 1925. The khanjarli look is only the result of the recurve shape in combination with deep fullers. The fullers themselves may be a caucasian influence, which is known from Jordan, or an imitation of much earlier Ottoman/Syrian dagger types which had this non-continuous type of fullers . Whichever is true, this is a very nice shibriya and this more complex, though not perfectly executed blade type is EXTREMELY rare. The nice thing about this period in shibriya development (late 19th to WW2) is that there was no standardized or accepted style and the variation is enormous and include the best examples shibriyas in general.