19th century corvo for discussion

Sajen · 9th January 2021, 11:24 AM

Thank you for comment Kai!

I have two others with scabbard, both are still in the States by my friend. One of them is also a very old one, the other one is around 1900.

Regards,
Detlef

Sajen · 9th January 2021, 03:04 PM

A theory concering the age of the different corvos.

I've searched through old threads here and have seen that the ones which look fairly old and rustic worked has the tang in up, speak near the spine of the blade, see the attached pictures, all taken from old threads and two own examples.

Sajen · 9th January 2021, 03:08 PM

And here later examples where the tang is situated in the middle of the blade.

Jim McDougall · 9th January 2021, 05:54 PM

These interesting knives have some fascinating history as part of the very complex history of Chile and one of the number of Spanish colonial countries of South America. We had some great discussion on them in Jul. 2015 where Ian added a great deal of comprehensive information.

Apparently these developed from the grape knife, which had a curved tip for cutting grapes from the vines. While the Spanish settled one of the key vineyard regions in Curico c. 1743, there were of course others and these grape knives seem to have become 'weaponized' by the 19th c.

In Peru and Bolivia there seems to have been disdain for these enlarged and larger bladed knives, which they derisively called 'cut throat knives'.
The term 'corvo' refers to the raven like hooked beak tip. It seems that there were brass circles on blades of older ones, the origin or possible meaning of the motif remains unknown.

These became popularly used in the grim 'War of the Pacific' (1879-1884) better known as the Saltpeter War for its casus belli being that and other resource exploitation and was fought between Chile, Peru and Bolivia.

I had not heard of the enlarged tang on the blade root indicating earlier versions. The indented choil at the blade root back, often regarded as a 'Spanish notch' has suggested earlier versions, and the stacked grip style has often suggested some of these being of Canary Islands source. Both the 'Meditteranean notch' and the stacked grips are affinities of the Canary Islands punale.

motan · 9th January 2021, 08:14 PM

Hi Detlef,
A good find and a great collection of old Corvos. I know the history, but not much about the knives themselves. The handle construction and design are Spanish influence, of course, and you see it in many different Spanish (ex) colonial knives like Brazilian faca de ponta and Canary islands knives, but I don't know much else.
Why do you think it is an older one? How did these knives develop? Could you say something about this?
Greetings, Eytan

Jim McDougall · 9th January 2021, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by motan

Hi Detlef,
A good find and a great collection of old Corvos. I know the history, but not much about the knives themselves. The handle construction and design are Spanish influence, of course, and you see it in many different Spanish (ex) colonial knives like Brazilian faca de ponta and Canary islands knives, but I don't know much else.
Why do you think it is an older one? How did these knives develop? Could you say something about this?
Greetings, Eytan

I agree, while the information I just posted (#6) is terribly inadequate, I'm not sure how much else there is. I'm glad you noticed the Spanish influence. How did the knives develop ? Maybe from a tool like a grape knife? How do we tell the old ones? good question as I dont think they are usually dated.

Sajen · 9th January 2021, 11:27 PM

Thanks to all for the interest. All that I personally know about the history of corvos Jim has summarized already.
I have attached a picture of some old/antique so called "Hippen", German pruning knives. Vintner knives from Germany and France have a very similar style. So the development is better visible.

Why do I think that my new one is an old/early one? First, look to the used handle material by this one and the ones posted in #4, it's always brass and/or copper between horn and/or bone, in one case it's leather (the one with black handle and ruler), by the ones I've posted in #5 you see by the stacked handles always stained disks.
Second, look at the bolster area, by the ones posted in #4 they nearly always worked very rusticly, they developed to the typical fat point seen by nearly all examples in #5.
This is what I have noticed and let me think that the ones with tang in up could be earlier, like said, a theory.

fernando · 10th January 2021, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... How did the knives develop ? Maybe from a tool like a grape knife? ...

"The exact origin of the Chilean Corvo cannot yet be clarified. Some authors speculate that it could be related to a white weapon brought by the first Spanish conquerors, the Janyar, a curved short sword of Arab origin that had entered the Iberian Peninsula after the invasion of the Moors. Be that as it may, the Corvo would be a widely used instrument in our country in colonial times, especially by the so-called "Chilean Roto" (the gañán, huaso, miner or cattle worker) for their work tasks and also as a defense weapo. Carlos López Urrutia, in his book “The Pacific War: 1879-1884 ″, explains that, "the famous Chilean Corvo was not a military weapon, but was usually used by agricultural workers and miners, as it was a very useful tool for the performance of their work ”.

fernando · 10th January 2021, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... The term 'corvo' refers to the raven like hooked beak tip...

A little note, if i may, Jim.
Spanish "Corvo" translates to "curve", here referring to the curved shape of the blade.
"Raven" would translate to "Cuervo"

.

Ian · 11th January 2021, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

A theory concerning the age of the different corvos.

I've searched through old threads here and have seen that the ones which look fairly old and rustic worked has the tang in up, speak near the spine of the blade, see the attached pictures, all taken from old threads and two own examples.

Hi Detlef:

You might be interested in the link posted some time back by Carlos, entitled: "EL CORVO CHILENO: HERRAMIENTA, ARMA Y SÍMBOLO HISTÓRICO" on the blog site URBATORIUM

Written in Spanish, it traces the history of the corvo and its relationship to agricultural tools and weapons of the past. My Spanish is rudimentary only so I won't attempt any translation. However, it would be helpful if someone here might translate it into English for us. I have attached a museum picture from that site that shows corvos from the War of the Pacific (dated 1880), including several general purpose examples. The pictures show that the dorsal- and central-oriented tangs, and the two types of bolsters you describe, were coexistent at the time of the War of the Pacific. It's possible that central tangs are more common today but they don't seem to have originated more recently than the dorsal tangs.

With regard to the origin of the word "corvo" for this knife, it has been well established in several posts here that it derives from the Spanish word for "curve," and has nothing to do with a crow (Corvid) which happens to share a common etymological root from Latin. Fernando has pointed this out several times, but the "crow theory" keeps coming back.

Corvos de la Guerra Del Pacifico (Collecion de Marcello Vilalba Solanas)

kronckew · 11th January 2021, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

...

You might be interested in the link posted some time back by Carlos, entitled: "EL CORVO CHILENO: HERRAMIENTA, ARMA Y SÍMBOLO HISTÓRICO" on the blog site URBATORIUM
......

The link I just posted above in post no. 19 is to an english translation of this website.

The one you posted on the left is one I'd like.

Ian · 12th January 2021, 11:54 AM

Hi Wayne,

I did not notice the entry you made about the same site. I think the online translation is an automated one based on software, with the usual obvious errors and clumsy wording that accompanies this method. I know enough Spanish to understand that there are significant mistranslations into English. The original Spanish version is a scholarly and sophisticated article that deserves translation by a bilingual person IMHO, in order to capture the full context and meaning of the article.

Sajen · 12th January 2021, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

I have attached a museum picture from that site that shows corvos from the War of the Pacific (dated 1880), including several general purpose examples. The pictures show that the dorsal- and central-oriented tangs, and the two types of bolsters you describe, were coexistent at the time of the War of the Pacific. It's possible that central tangs are more common today but they don't seem to have originated more recently than the dorsal tangs.

Hi Ian,
I've hoped you join in! And yes, you show the counterevidence.

But I still think that the one inquestion is an early example, what you think?

Regards,
Detlef

Jim McDougall · 10th December 2023, 02:34 AM

In the grouping shown here from earlier posts, one corvo is seen with these copper dots, though different orientation.
Does anyone know the significance?

fernando · 10th December 2023, 10:32 AM

Jim, i would not know the actual meaning of the brass dots on the corvo of Don Artemon Arellano's collection, but in case you are not aware, this is how Chilean corvos classified in a local blog.

1 - Luxury corvos: these are carefully and carefully made, measuring approximately 30 centimeters in total including the handle, the latter generally made of several alternating rings of bone, bronze, wood or stones. Although they may eventually be tools or weapons, it seems that presentation and symbolism predominate in the nature of this type of corvos over their mere functionality.

2 - Popular corvos: they are those that were made in a very artisanal way, with simple wooden or bone handles, conceived as tools for different trades but that, circumstantially, were converted into combat weapons, and apparently they serve this purpose quite well.

3 - Historiated corvos: these are those that have whitish, yellowish metal or brass circles embedded in their blade, or have been engraved with "trees of death" and other similar marks, intended to count the number of deaths passed through the weapon, a characteristic which gives it a macabre added value as a relic, since it is supposed to be used directly as a weapon of war and sometimes also in banditry.

Jim McDougall · 10th December 2023, 12:54 PM

Thank you Fernando!
These are great insights into these seemingly obscure knives, and my example has intrigued me for many years, but now I want to finally learn more about it.
What you have added is really interesting about the dots.

Naturally we cannot know the intended meaning, but that these were deliberately placed in the blade at its production seems to defy the notion of a 'tally' of 'victories' in a just produced blade. This long held notion has been around a long time, and I think of the western lore tales of gunfighters notching the grips of their six shooters for 'kills'. This was of course 'dime novel' sensationalism as no gunfighter known ever defaced his gun in this way (the actual guns they used are well known, none have notches).
Maybe if the corvo was custom made for an individual, he might specify such a number with that in mind, but who knows.

However with these dots and the other blade embellishments you note, much as with sword blades, these may have various talismanic values it would seem. In Islamic sword blades, embedded gold metal dots like this are held as sort of a lucky charm, but unclear on what numerically varying cases might mean.

Most sources I have found do relate the 'macabre' nature of these knives, derisively known in Peruvian and Bolivian accounts as 'cutthroat knives' from the War of the Pacific (1879-1883). It seems the use of these corvo during this war is well documented, and 'terrible injuries and fatalities' were induced by them. The derisive use by bandits etc. was of course pejorative.

While artwork of battles of this war follow the typical convention of uniformed men in pitched battle with muskets etc. it seems likely the actual combats were far more unconventional. With forces largely of conscripted men, these Chileans were closely bound to their traditional weapon, the corvo, which was traditionally the weapon they always had at hand. Much of the fighting was close in, and with a skilled user, the corvo was deadly.

It seems discussion on these has come up several times over the past decade, and have had pretty good traction, but we need to learn more.
As always, these kinds of symbolic features, the DOTS are haunting!
"I gots to know!" (-downed miscreant to "Dirty Harry", 1971)

9th January 2021, 11:24 AM	#1
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,164	Thank you for comment Kai! I have two others with scabbard, both are still in the States by my friend. One of them is also a very old one, the other one is around 1900. Regards, Detlef Attached Images

9th January 2021, 03:04 PM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,164	A theory concering the age of the different corvos. I've searched through old threads here and have seen that the ones which look fairly old and rustic worked has the tang in up, speak near the spine of the blade, see the attached pictures, all taken from old threads and two own examples. Attached Images

9th January 2021, 03:08 PM	#3
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,164	And here later examples where the tang is situated in the middle of the blade. Attached Images

9th January 2021, 11:27 PM	#7
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,164	Thanks to all for the interest. All that I personally know about the history of corvos Jim has summarized already. I have attached a picture of some old/antique so called "Hippen", German pruning knives. Vintner knives from Germany and France have a very similar style. So the development is better visible. Why do I think that my new one is an old/early one? First, look to the used handle material by this one and the ones posted in #4, it's always brass and/or copper between horn and/or bone, in one case it's leather (the one with black handle and ruler), by the ones I've posted in #5 you see by the stacked handles always stained disks. Second, look at the bolster area, by the ones posted in #4 they nearly always worked very rusticly, they developed to the typical fat point seen by nearly all examples in #5. This is what I have noticed and let me think that the ones with tang in up could be earlier, like said, a theory. Attached Images

10th December 2023, 02:34 AM	#14
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	What do the copper dots mean? In the grouping shown here from earlier posts, one corvo is seen with these copper dots, though different orientation. Does anyone know the significance? Attached Images

9th January 2021, 05:54 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	These interesting knives have some fascinating history as part of the very complex history of Chile and one of the number of Spanish colonial countries of South America. We had some great discussion on them in Jul. 2015 where Ian added a great deal of comprehensive information. Apparently these developed from the grape knife, which had a curved tip for cutting grapes from the vines. While the Spanish settled one of the key vineyard regions in Curico c. 1743, there were of course others and these grape knives seem to have become 'weaponized' by the 19th c. In Peru and Bolivia there seems to have been disdain for these enlarged and larger bladed knives, which they derisively called 'cut throat knives'. The term 'corvo' refers to the raven like hooked beak tip. It seems that there were brass circles on blades of older ones, the origin or possible meaning of the motif remains unknown. These became popularly used in the grim 'War of the Pacific' (1879-1884) better known as the Saltpeter War for its casus belli being that and other resource exploitation and was fought between Chile, Peru and Bolivia. I had not heard of the enlarged tang on the blade root indicating earlier versions. The indented choil at the blade root back, often regarded as a 'Spanish notch' has suggested earlier versions, and the stacked grip style has often suggested some of these being of Canary Islands source. Both the 'Meditteranean notch' and the stacked grips are affinities of the Canary Islands punale.

9th January 2021, 08:14 PM	#5
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	Hi Detlef, A good find and a great collection of old Corvos. I know the history, but not much about the knives themselves. The handle construction and design are Spanish influence, of course, and you see it in many different Spanish (ex) colonial knives like Brazilian faca de ponta and Canary islands knives, but I don't know much else. Why do you think it is an older one? How did these knives develop? Could you say something about this? Greetings, Eytan

12th January 2021, 11:54 AM	#12
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,361	Hi Wayne, I did not notice the entry you made about the same site. I think the online translation is an automated one based on software, with the usual obvious errors and clumsy wording that accompanies this method. I know enough Spanish to understand that there are significant mistranslations into English. The original Spanish version is a scholarly and sophisticated article that deserves translation by a bilingual person IMHO, in order to capture the full context and meaning of the article.

10th December 2023, 10:32 AM	#15
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Jim, i would not know the actual meaning of the brass dots on the corvo of Don Artemon Arellano's collection, but in case you are not aware, this is how Chilean corvos classified in a local blog. 1 - Luxury corvos: these are carefully and carefully made, measuring approximately 30 centimeters in total including the handle, the latter generally made of several alternating rings of bone, bronze, wood or stones. Although they may eventually be tools or weapons, it seems that presentation and symbolism predominate in the nature of this type of corvos over their mere functionality. 2 - Popular corvos: they are those that were made in a very artisanal way, with simple wooden or bone handles, conceived as tools for different trades but that, circumstantially, were converted into combat weapons, and apparently they serve this purpose quite well. 3 - Historiated corvos: these are those that have whitish, yellowish metal or brass circles embedded in their blade, or have been engraved with "trees of death" and other similar marks, intended to count the number of deaths passed through the weapon, a characteristic which gives it a macabre added value as a relic, since it is supposed to be used directly as a weapon of war and sometimes also in banditry.

10th December 2023, 12:54 PM	#16
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Thank you Fernando! These are great insights into these seemingly obscure knives, and my example has intrigued me for many years, but now I want to finally learn more about it. What you have added is really interesting about the dots. Naturally we cannot know the intended meaning, but that these were deliberately placed in the blade at its production seems to defy the notion of a 'tally' of 'victories' in a just produced blade. This long held notion has been around a long time, and I think of the western lore tales of gunfighters notching the grips of their six shooters for 'kills'. This was of course 'dime novel' sensationalism as no gunfighter known ever defaced his gun in this way (the actual guns they used are well known, none have notches). Maybe if the corvo was custom made for an individual, he might specify such a number with that in mind, but who knows. However with these dots and the other blade embellishments you note, much as with sword blades, these may have various talismanic values it would seem. In Islamic sword blades, embedded gold metal dots like this are held as sort of a lucky charm, but unclear on what numerically varying cases might mean. Most sources I have found do relate the 'macabre' nature of these knives, derisively known in Peruvian and Bolivian accounts as 'cutthroat knives' from the War of the Pacific (1879-1883). It seems the use of these corvo during this war is well documented, and 'terrible injuries and fatalities' were induced by them. The derisive use by bandits etc. was of course pejorative. While artwork of battles of this war follow the typical convention of uniformed men in pitched battle with muskets etc. it seems likely the actual combats were far more unconventional. With forces largely of conscripted men, these Chileans were closely bound to their traditional weapon, the corvo, which was traditionally the weapon they always had at hand. Much of the fighting was close in, and with a skilled user, the corvo was deadly. It seems discussion on these has come up several times over the past decade, and have had pretty good traction, but we need to learn more. As always, these kinds of symbolic features, the DOTS are haunting! "I gots to know!" (-downed miscreant to "Dirty Harry", 1971) Last edited by Jim McDougall; 10th December 2023 at 01:15 PM.