Colichemardes: re-started from hi-jacked thread

urbanspaceman · 30th December 2020, 03:47 PM

I am sorry, I appear to be confusing the issue rather than illuminating it.
In brief:
all colichemardes observed to date - by myself and the numerous dealers and collectors I have consulted - have a rolled, constant-width groove, on the wide face, below the forte; rather than a hollow with a decreasing radius, as seen on the two upper faces and the majority of non-colichemarde smallswords.
There are also a few (very few) colichemardes with a groove that extends to the top of the forte, rather than the majority which end at the lower shoulder of the forte. Attached is an example and a picture of this sword compared to regular colichemardes: pics courtesy of my friend Mel.
If there are ascribed monikers for these positions on the forte then perhaps the cognoscenti would appraise me please.
The machine used to roll the groove in a colichemarde has also been used to produce inexpensive battlefield-issue smallswords: they are not common but equally not rare; the example posted by Corrado is just such a sword. I have attached another typical grooved battlefield smallsword which could almost have sharpened edges if desired.
What I am searching for are colichemardes with a varying radius hollow on the entire length of the wide face: if anyone has seen such a thing please let me share in your good fortune as I haven't found a one to date, and no-one I have spoken to has either.
Failing that, this means that all colichemardes (name meaning and purpose unknown) have been made using the secret machine that was built by Huguenots in Solingen around 1630.
Colichemardes pre-date Konigsmarcke and the exact purpose of the extra width forte has never been absolutely determined, although the obvious purpose is as a blocking defence against heavier blades.
There are also examples of a colichemarde shaped blade with alternative fullers in the forte and no hollows in the rest of the blade, but I have only seen one (attached: but I can't remember where it was found which is a pity as it is a fascinating sword).

urbanspaceman · 30th December 2020, 03:53 PM

Cornelistromp, I nearly forgot:
the sword on the right dated 1640 is an equally fascinating blade: is it yours?
It looks Dutch.

cornelistromp · 30th December 2020, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Cornelistromp, I nearly forgot:
the sword on the right dated 1640 is an equally fascinating blade: is it yours?
It looks Dutch.

ah I now see what you mean by the narrow fuller in colichemarde blades, This type of fuller occurs indeed on smallswords from the mid-18th century, usually of triangular section with hollow ground.
yes the equestrian hilt from my collection is attributed to the Dutch, however the high quality carving of some of the hilts also points in the direction of the medal makers in Paris.
For some other examples of "fortified" blades attributed to the netherlands, see eg.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=24844

best,

urbanspaceman · 30th December 2020, 11:21 PM

These fortified blade trans raps are fascinating; thank-you.
The slim unsharpened style of blade seems to have been especially common in the Netherlands.
I have a late 1600s transitional rapier/smallsword that has been tagged as a 'duelling rapier' although precisely what constitutes such a sword is somewhat vague in my experience, with only the lack of a knuckleguard being a constant feature.
Later 'first blood' dueling rapiers with equestrian hilts seem to have been common in the Low Countries.
I must try to acquire one of those fortified blade trans raps.
If anyone out there is au fait with Dutch sword history perhaps they can tell me if Solingen ever set up a satellite industry in Rotterdam or was it just a trading post. Bezdek doesn't seem to have discovered one.

cornelistromp · 31st December 2020, 10:42 AM

I would like to recommend the following publication for Dutch major production centres, imports from the various foreign production centers, including Solingen and for export to anyone who needed weapons and equipment with short lead times.

urbanspaceman · 1st January 2021, 12:31 AM

Thank-you, it certainly looks like a very suitable book to answer my question but it is not available in all the places I searched today.
In complete frankness, I have no profound interest in the overall subject, just in the detail I requested and that, in itself, was of minimal consequence, just one of the many questions that have remained unanswered during my five years of research into the Shotley Bridge story.
I have a list of unexplored issues put aside due to time constraints and narrative necessity; so now my book is finished, it is simply a matter of turning my attention to some of those questions when I find an opportunity, purely in order to satisfy my curiosity.
The question of Solingen workers in the Netherlands was one of those issues. I know trade was conducted out of Rotterdam, but wondered if there were manufactories also.
Again, thank-you Cornelis, for your recommendation, I will continue to look for the book.

Interested Party · 1st January 2021, 03:01 PM

So many years ago the fencing master I was studying with spoke on this subject. I have no sources to collaborate my following statements. It is just one man's opinion filtered through my flawed memory. I found the subject fascinating and always hoped to collect a Colichemarde because of this class. We did not get into methods of manufacture. It was a bit outside of the martials arts focus of the class. He said that the groove and subsequent rib in question were for a tactical advantage. The grove lightened the blade and the rib strengthened and stiffened a stabbing weapon. Of course taking away cutting power. He called this basic type of blade an epee and in his presence only blades with this grove were to be referred to as epees. The collecting world seems to disagree with this designation and this was confusing for me for a long time. So far elementary. Now for the debatable portion cogent to urbanspaceman's topic. He went on to say that while this innovation was highly effective creating a very fast moving, agile, point that was still very strong, with an edge that was thin enough to sharpen to discourage grabbing the foible of the blade. In England due to it's swordsman ship being cut and thrust based and the high death rate on the continent of the upper-class in non-military conflicts these innovations were frowned upon a bit and regulated particularly in combination with the weighty, wide forte to defend against heavier swords, including the cut and thrust variety. Creating a weapon too dangerous for civilian use. That said I was surprised to learn of a machine to create this innovation in England. Were the blades made mainly for export?

fernando · 2nd January 2021, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

... There are also a few (very few) colichemardes with a groove that extends to the top of the forte, rather than the majority which end at the lower shoulder of the forte. Attached is an example and a picture of this sword compared to regular colichemardes: pics courtesy of my friend Mel.
...

Is this another one of the kind ?

https://sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/t...e-colichemarde.

urbanspaceman · 2nd January 2021, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Is this another one of the kind ?

https://sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/t...e-colichemarde.

Yes Fernando, this 'quoted as extremely rare' sword is a typical example of the machine rolled battlefield smallsword; although slightly more elaborate in the hilt compared to my friend's example; thank-you for that. I have earmarked this man's smallsword lectures for scrutiny.
I have a similar example, although it is a children's sword. At first glance the blade appears cut-down and may well be, but the relation of the length of the wide forte to the overall length of the blade seems to deny that; plus, the hilt is very small and suitable only for a pre-teen youth. The latten indicates probable French origins and as the sword was found in Aberdeen so a French connection during the Young Pretender period seems possible. There may be an interesting provenance.
This shape is also unusual as it is a colichemarde in all but shoulder and in that respect dissimilar to the example you provided which is an almost constant width blade. It does have sharpened edges however.
On consideration, it is possible that the blade was shortened at both ends and was, in fact, a typical colichemarde with the shoulders removed.

30th December 2020, 03:47 PM	#1
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 577	Colichemardes I am sorry, I appear to be confusing the issue rather than illuminating it. In brief: all colichemardes observed to date - by myself and the numerous dealers and collectors I have consulted - have a rolled, constant-width groove, on the wide face, below the forte; rather than a hollow with a decreasing radius, as seen on the two upper faces and the majority of non-colichemarde smallswords. There are also a few (very few) colichemardes with a groove that extends to the top of the forte, rather than the majority which end at the lower shoulder of the forte. Attached is an example and a picture of this sword compared to regular colichemardes: pics courtesy of my friend Mel. If there are ascribed monikers for these positions on the forte then perhaps the cognoscenti would appraise me please. The machine used to roll the groove in a colichemarde has also been used to produce inexpensive battlefield-issue smallswords: they are not common but equally not rare; the example posted by Corrado is just such a sword. I have attached another typical grooved battlefield smallsword which could almost have sharpened edges if desired. What I am searching for are colichemardes with a varying radius hollow on the entire length of the wide face: if anyone has seen such a thing please let me share in your good fortune as I haven't found a one to date, and no-one I have spoken to has either. Failing that, this means that all colichemardes (name meaning and purpose unknown) have been made using the secret machine that was built by Huguenots in Solingen around 1630. Colichemardes pre-date Konigsmarcke and the exact purpose of the extra width forte has never been absolutely determined, although the obvious purpose is as a blocking defence against heavier blades. There are also examples of a colichemarde shaped blade with alternative fullers in the forte and no hollows in the rest of the blade, but I have only seen one (attached: but I can't remember where it was found which is a pity as it is a fascinating sword). Attached Images

30th December 2020, 03:53 PM	#2
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 577	ps BTW Cornelistromp, I nearly forgot: the sword on the right dated 1640 is an equally fascinating blade: is it yours? It looks Dutch.

30th December 2020, 11:21 PM	#4
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 577	Dutch blade shapes These fortified blade trans raps are fascinating; thank-you. The slim unsharpened style of blade seems to have been especially common in the Netherlands. I have a late 1600s transitional rapier/smallsword that has been tagged as a 'duelling rapier' although precisely what constitutes such a sword is somewhat vague in my experience, with only the lack of a knuckleguard being a constant feature. Later 'first blood' dueling rapiers with equestrian hilts seem to have been common in the Low Countries. I must try to acquire one of those fortified blade trans raps. If anyone out there is au fait with Dutch sword history perhaps they can tell me if Solingen ever set up a satellite industry in Rotterdam or was it just a trading post. Bezdek doesn't seem to have discovered one. Attached Images

31st December 2020, 10:42 AM	#5
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	I would like to recommend the following publication for Dutch major production centres, imports from the various foreign production centers, including Solingen and for export to anyone who needed weapons and equipment with short lead times. Attached Images Last edited by cornelistromp; 31st December 2020 at 10:55 AM.

1st January 2021, 12:31 AM	#6
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 577	book suggestion Thank-you, it certainly looks like a very suitable book to answer my question but it is not available in all the places I searched today. In complete frankness, I have no profound interest in the overall subject, just in the detail I requested and that, in itself, was of minimal consequence, just one of the many questions that have remained unanswered during my five years of research into the Shotley Bridge story. I have a list of unexplored issues put aside due to time constraints and narrative necessity; so now my book is finished, it is simply a matter of turning my attention to some of those questions when I find an opportunity, purely in order to satisfy my curiosity. The question of Solingen workers in the Netherlands was one of those issues. I know trade was conducted out of Rotterdam, but wondered if there were manufactories also. Again, thank-you Cornelis, for your recommendation, I will continue to look for the book.

1st January 2021, 03:01 PM	#7
Interested Party Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Location: Eastern Sierra Posts: 491	Oral history So many years ago the fencing master I was studying with spoke on this subject. I have no sources to collaborate my following statements. It is just one man's opinion filtered through my flawed memory. I found the subject fascinating and always hoped to collect a Colichemarde because of this class. We did not get into methods of manufacture. It was a bit outside of the martials arts focus of the class. He said that the groove and subsequent rib in question were for a tactical advantage. The grove lightened the blade and the rib strengthened and stiffened a stabbing weapon. Of course taking away cutting power. He called this basic type of blade an epee and in his presence only blades with this grove were to be referred to as epees. The collecting world seems to disagree with this designation and this was confusing for me for a long time. So far elementary. Now for the debatable portion cogent to urbanspaceman's topic. He went on to say that while this innovation was highly effective creating a very fast moving, agile, point that was still very strong, with an edge that was thin enough to sharpen to discourage grabbing the foible of the blade. In England due to it's swordsman ship being cut and thrust based and the high death rate on the continent of the upper-class in non-military conflicts these innovations were frowned upon a bit and regulated particularly in combination with the weighty, wide forte to defend against heavier swords, including the cut and thrust variety. Creating a weapon too dangerous for civilian use. That said I was surprised to learn of a machine to create this innovation in England. Were the blades made mainly for export?