Chinese daggers - more colourful as christmas trees

[mariusgmioc]

Everybody is entitled to his/her own opinion and we all believe what we want to believe.

I have owned a couple of such daggers and I am pretty sure they are all 20th century decorative pieces. And yes, some of them are well made and decorated with semi-precious stones that have been used as gifts/presents. In fact, that is their main purpose: to be used as gifts, presents, souvenirs.

Regarding the description from the auction houses, please note that almost all auction houses, in their terms and conditions of sales, have disclaimers that absolve them of any discrepancies/errors/misinterpretations in the descriptions of the lots sold. So they basically can describe any lot as they please, without bearing any responsibility for the accuracy of description... and they describe their lots to fetch higher prices.

Prince Tommaso di Savoia died in 1931 so if one dagger comes from his collection, it doesn't mean it is 19th century.

In conclusion, I fully agree with Mahratt.

PS: Here is the one it was in my possesion, then sold it a long time ago. It was solid silver with semi-precious stones and exceptional workmanhip... and marked "MADE IN CHINA"...

[Jim McDougall]

Robin, I agree, these are very 'Christmasey' , astutely noted (wouldn't mind having one under my tree!).
Your questions are well placed.

I agree with Mahratt, the use of the word vintage is likely the best description, and these do seem to have been a style and character around for quite some time, probably embellished versions of much earlier examples.

I have seen these in antique stores, often, if not typically, listed as 'Tibetan'. I have been under the impression these may have been votive pieces in Tibetan temples, and dramatic symbolism is key in Tantric Buddhism and Bon religions. Precious stones and symbolic values of them is well established in the ritual and presence in these temples. I think of the spiritual 'phurbu' daggers, which are of course smaller but often ornately appointed.

It seems many of these I mention from antique stores were indeed 'vintage' having some age to them, extremely well made, and we may presume China, however remember China's suzerainty in Tibet. Tibetan artisans in border regions often produced weaponry for China as a kind of periodic tribute expectancy. These may have been among that circumstance, and perhaps copied from the votive type weapons I noted.

I agree most auctioneers have a degree of latitude in thier offerings, however most of the more well known ones are somewhat guarded in descriptions as their clientele is usually notably knowledgeable, and reputation is important in the higher strata of collecting. While certainly commercial entities have tried to capitalize on these kinds of 'vintage' examples in more modern times, there are still good numbers of them out there which are/were genuinely intended as either votives or occasionally diplomatic gifts possibly in the manner of the 'tribute' circumstance.

Obviously a number of possibilities, but regardless, these examples shown seem of outstandng quality, the use of precious stones and metalwork not withstanding. I would think these out of the usual lesser qualityof tourist souvenirs.

As noted, everyone is entitled to opinion, and this is mine.
Thank you for sharing these, gave me a Christmas smile!

[Philip]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Robin,

I have seen these in antique stores, often, if not typically, listed as 'Tibetan'. I have been under the impression these may have been votive pieces in Tibetan temples, and dramatic symbolism is key in Tantric Buddhism and Bon religions. Precious stones and symbolic values of them is well established in the ritual and presence in these temples. I think of the spiritual 'phurbu' daggers, which are of course smaller but often ornately appointed.

!

Jim,
I first saw these in great number on my trips to Hong Kong in the mid 1970s, ( even bought a very nice one as resale merch, whose blade was probably wootz based on what appeared from etching). The dealers over there all described them as "Mongolian" despite the fact that their stores were well-stocked with gilt-copper sculpture and architectural elements yanked out of temples and monasteries looted by the PLA in the 1959 uprising.

For some years I buried my nose in ethnographic research, rooting through books on Inner Asia by travelers and explorers, and examining lots of on-site photos of noblemen, temple treasuries, etc. You'd think that these things would appear in some paragraph or picture . But...NADA.

Just because there are Buddhistic motifs in the deco doesn't mean a link to Tantrism, monasteries, etc. A lot of them are common to Far Eastern deco art themes in general. Also, Beijing was noted for its silversmiths, making decorated utilitarian objects (tinder pouches, horse fittings, trousse scabbards, tea pots, jewelry, etc) for all and sundry. Just as Canton was cranking out furniture and ceramics in a variety of styles for sale to Chinese and foreign buyers (Westerners would order sets of dinnerware emblazoned with their family crests via export merchants in that city). It was a common saying then that there wasn't anything a Chinese workman couldn't copy, that some foreigner wouldn't buy.

[Philip]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

. In fact, that is their main purpose: to be used as gifts, presents, souvenirs.

Regarding the description from the auction houses, please note that almost all auction houses, in their terms and conditions of sales, have disclaimers that absolve them of any discrepancies/errors/misinterpretations in the descriptions of the lots sold. So they basically can describe any lot as they please, without bearing any responsibility for the accuracy of description... and they describe their lots to fetch higher prices.

Prince Tommaso di Savoia died in 1931 so if one dagger comes from his collection, it doesn't mean it is 19th century.

Agreed. These daggers come in a wide variety of configurations, some short swords actually (even with cut-down old Chinese and Japanese blades with clumsily reshaped tips and even pseudo Manchu or Mongolian-ish inscriptions in koftgari). Decorative, for the tourist trade is the common denominator.

Provenance is something that auctioneers and retail dealers are pretty cavalier about. About a decade ago, at the Las Vegas Antique Arms Show, I saw a very nicely made example of this genre, a jian (double edged sword), with the lavish silver and hardstone deco befitting something sold at Vegas, with a "provenance " document linking it to the estate of a US military officer who served in the Far East, including China, in the early 1930s. It was merely a typrwritten letter from someone in the family, dated some years before I saw the sword, attesting to the fact. Together with some old new clipping about the owner, but not mentioning the sword. I rather doubted whether it was even the original typed document that it claimed to be. . The sword may well have been early 20th cent. it was a fine example of the type for someone who really liked this stuff, but the unsubstantiated war story really didn't do a thing for it.

But buyers are funny. Someone else might buy the story and think the piece is truly important because of this.

" Men tend to believe in those things which they wish to be true." --Julius Caesar.

[Gonzoadler]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

PS: Here is the one it was in my possesion, then sold it a long time ago. It was solid silver with semi-precious stones and exceptional workmanhip... and marked "MADE IN CHINA"...

That is a good point, but you can´t really make a dating with that inscription. For example in England, foreign products are marked in that way since the end of the 19th century (since 1891 in many other countries). That is also the origin for the designation "made in Germany". That was be thought as warning before inferior German products, but the quality of German products was good and it became a seal of approval. It only shows that your dagger was made for the export, most likely after 1891.

Regards