British pipeback parabolic blade saber c. 1801

Will M · 6th December 2020, 05:21 PM

I've read that pipe backed blades that cuts were hampered by the pipe back but I have not seen any real testing to confirm this. The pipe back possibly 1/4" wide and rounded may not slow the cut as much as some perceive. The blades are quite thin and can be razor sharp and you are cutting in about 1" before the pipe back would contact the target. There may be Youtube videos using such swords to evaluate cuts? Being thin blades they would be more likely to break during use.

kronckew · 6th December 2020, 08:08 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aK34V1P07bs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VAHQ6advQ0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aK34V1P07bs

Matt does like to talk....

Info on flank officers swords: https://collections.royalarmouries.o...ative-469.html

Hotspur · 6th December 2020, 10:02 PM

A side note in nomenclature. British models were prefixed with a p. p1796, etc. I'll let the gods debate the scope of flank officer swords but my understanding is that the term accommodates both the less curved and more curved blades, p1796 type hilts and the later 1803 hilts. I am now curious how the term "flank officer" was coined and used by the British army, or indeed if it is a more modern affectation.

That is a really early looking pipe back. I thought that those blades in England arose in the 1820s.

Cheers
GC

Will M · 7th December 2020, 02:17 AM

I did see Matts video on these after posting here. I could not find any cutting videos with this blade type.
The Royal Armouries have some good swords but I find many listed have no photos, typically described as the ones I would like to see.

Bryce · 7th December 2020, 03:08 AM

G'day Jim,
That is a very interesting sword. I haven't come across that combination of canted hilt and pipe-back blade before. Normally these canted hilts are associated with flat, unfullered blades. I have two of these, one maker marked to a tailor Maullin and Co and owned by an artillery officer and the other brass hilted example by Osborn and Gunby. Both of mine have 69cm blades. How long is your blade?

I have done a bit of research on the earliest British pipe-back swords and the earliest dateable ones I have found are circa 1798-1800. By 1815 they were very common for officer's swords. The earlier ones tend to have very fine cutting edges. Looking at your photos, your example appears to have a very pronounced secondary bevel on the cutting edge, indicating a heavier blade.? To me this probably dates it closer to 1820 than 1810.

I think this style of sword could have been carried by an officer of just about any branch of the army ie infantry, cavalry or artillery.

Cheers,
Bryce

Norman McCormick · 7th December 2020, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryce

G'day Jim,

I think this style of sword could have been carried by an officer of just about any branch of the army ie infantry, cavalry or artillery.

Cheers,
Bryce

Hi,
I would suspect there is indeed merit in this. Styles seem to have been somewhat fluid in some cases although the more flamboyant curves appear to be particularly associated with those blades attributed to 'flank officers'.
Regards,
Norman.

P.S. Jim, it might be helpful to know the length of the blade.

Jim McDougall · 7th December 2020, 03:03 PM

Thank you guys for these great entries and observations! I apologize for not providing dimensions in this, I dont have the sword at the moment but will get those details asap.

As noted, it does appear the 'pipeback' did become more popularly known in 1820s and notably present on many of the 1820s period officers swords.
I think, as Norman has just noted, the 'officer' denominator illustrates the key factor that officers tended to traverse various branches of service and units.
Many officers might be in cavalry unit at one time, then transfer into infantry or artillery with trading of commissions.

In most references I have seen, it does seem that officers were not expected to participate in regular combat activity, but primarily to direct forces. Obviously, this seems unlikely to be a standard as combat circumstances could render it necessary to defend oneself as required.

I am not sure the interference of the ramrod back preventing a through cut is a deterrent for its viability as a blade feature. The typical cut with these curved blades is more 'draw cut' I would think rather than the chopping action of the heavier and hatchet point blades of the more common 1796 blades.

I personally agree with the observation this is likely an early example of a saber among 'test' patterns c. 1800, and quite possibly even a prototype using the ramrod back. As I had mentioned, Osborn was using various types of swords, including tulwars and shamshirs as test models, among others.

Jim McDougall · 7th December 2020, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryce

G'day Jim,
That is a very interesting sword. I haven't come across that combination of canted hilt and pipe-back blade before. Normally these canted hilts are associated with flat, unfullered blades. I have two of these, one maker marked to a tailor Maullin and Co and owned by an artillery officer and the other brass hilted example by Osborn and Gunby. Both of mine have 69cm blades. How long is your blade?

I have done a bit of research on the earliest British pipe-back swords and the earliest dateable ones I have found are circa 1798-1800. By 1815 they were very common for officer's swords. The earlier ones tend to have very fine cutting edges. Looking at your photos, your example appears to have a very pronounced secondary bevel on the cutting edge, indicating a heavier blade.? To me this probably dates it closer to 1820 than 1810.

I think this style of sword could have been carried by an officer of just about any branch of the army ie infantry, cavalry or artillery.

Cheers,
Bryce

These are great examples Bryce. It seems the hilts look slightly canted, and again, something to 'flank' company favor it seems. I am unclear on exactly what the 'flank' company designation entails, but it seems that on the M1803 examples there is a horn device which is used to identify them as such.
Perhaps this might explain the purpose of these units?

Bryce · 7th December 2020, 09:02 PM

G'day Jim,
The term "flank company" refers to the Grenadier and Light companies of a British infantry regiment. The Grenadier company, symbolised by a flaming grenade was the largest (and generally made up of the tallest men) company in the regiment. It was used to head up assaults etc. The Light company was symbolised by the strung bugle. Its main task was skirmishing. Traditionally they were arrayed on each flank of the main battle line of the regiment, hence the term. Often the flank companies of several regiments were banded together and used for special missions during campaigns.
Cheers,
Bryce

7th December 2020, 03:08 AM	#5
Bryce Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: North Queensland, Australia Posts: 189	G'day Jim, That is a very interesting sword. I haven't come across that combination of canted hilt and pipe-back blade before. Normally these canted hilts are associated with flat, unfullered blades. I have two of these, one maker marked to a tailor Maullin and Co and owned by an artillery officer and the other brass hilted example by Osborn and Gunby. Both of mine have 69cm blades. How long is your blade? I have done a bit of research on the earliest British pipe-back swords and the earliest dateable ones I have found are circa 1798-1800. By 1815 they were very common for officer's swords. The earlier ones tend to have very fine cutting edges. Looking at your photos, your example appears to have a very pronounced secondary bevel on the cutting edge, indicating a heavier blade.? To me this probably dates it closer to 1820 than 1810. I think this style of sword could have been carried by an officer of just about any branch of the army ie infantry, cavalry or artillery. Cheers, Bryce Attached Images

7th December 2020, 09:02 PM	#9
Bryce Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: North Queensland, Australia Posts: 189	G'day Jim, The term "flank company" refers to the Grenadier and Light companies of a British infantry regiment. The Grenadier company, symbolised by a flaming grenade was the largest (and generally made up of the tallest men) company in the regiment. It was used to head up assaults etc. The Light company was symbolised by the strung bugle. Its main task was skirmishing. Traditionally they were arrayed on each flank of the main battle line of the regiment, hence the term. Often the flank companies of several regiments were banded together and used for special missions during campaigns. Cheers, Bryce Attached Images

6th December 2020, 05:21 PM	#1
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 395	I've read that pipe backed blades that cuts were hampered by the pipe back but I have not seen any real testing to confirm this. The pipe back possibly 1/4" wide and rounded may not slow the cut as much as some perceive. The blades are quite thin and can be razor sharp and you are cutting in about 1" before the pipe back would contact the target. There may be Youtube videos using such swords to evaluate cuts? Being thin blades they would be more likely to break during use.

6th December 2020, 08:08 PM	#2
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,230	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aK34V1P07bs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VAHQ6advQ0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aK34V1P07bs Matt does like to talk.... Info on flank officers swords: https://collections.royalarmouries.o...ative-469.html

6th December 2020, 10:02 PM	#3
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 517	A side note in nomenclature. British models were prefixed with a p. p1796, etc. I'll let the gods debate the scope of flank officer swords but my understanding is that the term accommodates both the less curved and more curved blades, p1796 type hilts and the later 1803 hilts. I am now curious how the term "flank officer" was coined and used by the British army, or indeed if it is a more modern affectation. That is a really early looking pipe back. I thought that those blades in England arose in the 1820s. Cheers GC

7th December 2020, 02:17 AM	#4
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 395	I did see Matts video on these after posting here. I could not find any cutting videos with this blade type. The Royal Armouries have some good swords but I find many listed have no photos, typically described as the ones I would like to see.

7th December 2020, 03:03 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,340	Thank you guys for these great entries and observations! I apologize for not providing dimensions in this, I dont have the sword at the moment but will get those details asap. As noted, it does appear the 'pipeback' did become more popularly known in 1820s and notably present on many of the 1820s period officers swords. I think, as Norman has just noted, the 'officer' denominator illustrates the key factor that officers tended to traverse various branches of service and units. Many officers might be in cavalry unit at one time, then transfer into infantry or artillery with trading of commissions. In most references I have seen, it does seem that officers were not expected to participate in regular combat activity, but primarily to direct forces. Obviously, this seems unlikely to be a standard as combat circumstances could render it necessary to defend oneself as required. I am not sure the interference of the ramrod back preventing a through cut is a deterrent for its viability as a blade feature. The typical cut with these curved blades is more 'draw cut' I would think rather than the chopping action of the heavier and hatchet point blades of the more common 1796 blades. I personally agree with the observation this is likely an early example of a saber among 'test' patterns c. 1800, and quite possibly even a prototype using the ramrod back. As I had mentioned, Osborn was using various types of swords, including tulwars and shamshirs as test models, among others.