Unknown sabre

cel7 · 29th October 2020, 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

Do you have a picture of the complete weapon in the scabbard and out of the scabbard ?

Here are some extra pictures

Kubur · 29th October 2020, 08:16 AM

I don't like the word tourist, I think decorative would be better.
Question: do you have a sharp blade? The clip point blade is not Japanese.
About the argument
"tourist sabre or something like that. Then the same sabre would appear more often"
could be turn into
"real sword would appear more often"...
Is someone know if Japanese did such kind of swords?
Or if the Chinese did this kind of fantasy swords?
It's a nice sword btw

cel7 · 29th October 2020, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

I don't like the word tourist, I think decorative would be better.
Question: do you have a sharp blade? The clip point blade is not Japanese.
About the argument
"tourist sabre or something like that. Then the same sabre would appear more often"
could be turn into
"real sword would appear more often"...
Is someone know if Japanese did such kind of swords?
Or if the Chinese did this kind of fantasy swords?
It's a nice sword btw

the blade is reasanobly sharp but not sharp enough to fillet a fish with

.
Maybe we should indeed asume that it is a fantasy sword of some kind. Or someone must provide proof for a different explanation.

David · 29th October 2020, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

I don't like the word tourist, I think decorative would be better.
Question: do you have a sharp blade? The clip point blade is not Japanese.
About the argument
"tourist sabre or something like that. Then the same sabre would appear more often"
could be turn into
"real sword would appear more often"...
Is someone know if Japanese did such kind of swords?
Or if the Chinese did this kind of fantasy swords?
It's a nice sword btw

No one ever suggested this was a Japanese sword. Peter identified this as a JAVANESE sword. I'm not sure why everyone seems to have dismissed this notion. Peter is fairly well versed in Indonesian weapons. I believe he is probably correct, or it is at least Indonesian. I don't know for sure that it can be tied to keraton officials as i have not seen another one like this, but i don't think this is a "fantasy sword". The peacock at the top of the scabbard is indeed a known motif used often on pendoks for keris. The fanged face at the tip of the scabbard looks like a kala to me. The bird head pommel is most likely a garuda. Not any fantasy iconology at work here.
Clip point blades like this are well known to the area. This blade looks very much like a clip point klewang.

asomotif · 29th October 2020, 11:15 PM

It is the techniques, form and style that are puzzling me.

The casted hilt, rivited with 2 rivits
The scabbard of brass, made of 2 halves and soldered together
The kala (?) head at the bottom, also soldered
The screw at the bottom.
The japanese style blade. indeed with a clip point. but the overal impression to me is that of a katana.
The lock system, well where have I seen that before. again the katana.

The techniques suggest that it has been made in some kind of series, this is definately not a unique piece of hand work. I wonder if more turn up.
Keep an eye on ALiexpess

cel7 · 29th October 2020, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

It is the techniques, form and style that are puzzling me.

The casted hilt, rivited with 2 rivits
The scabbard of brass, made of 2 halves and soldered together
The kala (?) head at the bottom, also soldered
The screw at the bottom.
The japanese style blade. indeed with a clip point. but the overal impression to me is that of a katana.
The lock system, well where have I seen that before. again the katana.

The techniques suggest that it has been made in some kind of series, this is definately not a unique piece of hand work. I wonder if more turn up.
Keep an eye on ALiexpess

Small correction. The scabbard is made out of one piece of brass, folded en soldered.

Kubur · 30th October 2020, 12:23 AM

The blade is not Japanese
only the habaki, the seppa (soldered or moulded to the guard that's strange)
and the lock system only on shin gunto
so the sword has to be post wwII
The rest is very Javanese as noted.
I will be curious if someone can explain this mystery...

asomotif · 30th October 2020, 01:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

The japanese style blade.

David · 30th October 2020, 02:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

The japanese style blade. indeed with a clip point. but the overal impression to me is that of a katana.

A kantana? The blade reminds me much more of a Dutch Klewang, which were all over Indonesia for a time. Not a good functional one, of course, but as Peter suggested, this sword was probably more for dress than practical function.

Ian · 30th October 2020, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

... The blade reminds me much more of a Dutch Klewang, which were all over Indonesia for a time. Not a good functional one, of course, but as Peter suggested, this sword was probably more for dress than practical function.

Agree David. The blade looks modeled after the Dutch klewang, a sword used by the Dutch military in Indonesia from 1905 to 1941.

Jim McDougall · 30th October 2020, 06:03 PM

This has been a most interesting discussion, and though outside my usual fields,and I have been learning from the entries here.
While I cannot add anything substantial, I would just agree, the terms fantasy or tourist are often a bit overused and misapplied with many ethnographic weapons.

With this interesting, and in my opinion attractive sword, it seems better made and viable than commercial souvenir type items, and more like something that would be worn by either civil officials ceremonially or perhaps fraternal type organizations. However it would seem that some symbolic motif or initials would be present in those cases.

The reference to 'Japanese style' features I believe (as already suggested) apply to the habaki and mounts as seen in the image I found online.

The 'Shaver Cool' reference was to the Dutch sword with VOC applications that brought one of the longest running discussions here, a historic

discourse that brought playful groans for years to follow.
The Dutch East India Company did produce swords etc. that became souvenirs as well as in use in varying degree ceremonially.

On this sword, it does seem that the blade has a resemblance to the Dutch 'klewang', which was a 'cutlass' used by the Netherlands 1905-41. The tip of the blade has a characteristic 'clipped point', a feature which would not seem to be used on a souvenir item, though of course could be if that much detail was desired.

The faces are similar to those on some pedang suduk (attached photos) from Java, and it is fascinating that these, the noted Burmese features and Japanese character are melded together in a sword with klewang type blade.

The Dutch klewang is a sword (cutlass) with intriguing history, written on by Carter Rila, "A Modern Mystery: Cutlass or Klewang? The Elusive U.S. Navy Cutlass Variant of WWII"
'Journal of the Company of Military Historians"
Vol.27, #4, Winter, 1975

Apparently these Dutch 'cutlasses' were copied by an Ohio company in WWII (1942) for the U.S. Navy.

It seems these kinds of influences not only affected the swords for the private uses suggested with this one, but for further military use as well.

ruiter58 · 31st October 2020, 02:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

...the Dutch klewang, a sword used by the Dutch military in Indonesia from 1905 to 1941.

Hello, I also see similarities with the Dutch klewang blades except for the clipped tip; this one seems straight as the Dutch klewang has more a "Beak" shape.
About the time period: this is an impressive period from 1898 until the last action in (Papua) New Guinea in 1962.

A quote from the "Klewang, catalogue of the Dutch army museum, page 190"

"...When Indonesia won independence at the end of 1949, the western part of New Guinea remained in Dutch hands" The handover to Indonesia was in 1962

another quote from the same page:
"...during patrols and on guard duties all military wore klewangs..."

Kind regards,
Ron de Ruiter
Dutch klewang collector

PS: The authors of the klewang catalogue referred to the book "New Guinea" by J.J. Notier (1997) as a source

30th October 2020, 06:03 PM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,454	This has been a most interesting discussion, and though outside my usual fields,and I have been learning from the entries here. While I cannot add anything substantial, I would just agree, the terms fantasy or tourist are often a bit overused and misapplied with many ethnographic weapons. With this interesting, and in my opinion attractive sword, it seems better made and viable than commercial souvenir type items, and more like something that would be worn by either civil officials ceremonially or perhaps fraternal type organizations. However it would seem that some symbolic motif or initials would be present in those cases. The reference to 'Japanese style' features I believe (as already suggested) apply to the habaki and mounts as seen in the image I found online. The 'Shaver Cool' reference was to the Dutch sword with VOC applications that brought one of the longest running discussions here, a historic discourse that brought playful groans for years to follow. The Dutch East India Company did produce swords etc. that became souvenirs as well as in use in varying degree ceremonially. On this sword, it does seem that the blade has a resemblance to the Dutch 'klewang', which was a 'cutlass' used by the Netherlands 1905-41. The tip of the blade has a characteristic 'clipped point', a feature which would not seem to be used on a souvenir item, though of course could be if that much detail was desired. The faces are similar to those on some pedang suduk (attached photos) from Java, and it is fascinating that these, the noted Burmese features and Japanese character are melded together in a sword with klewang type blade. The Dutch klewang is a sword (cutlass) with intriguing history, written on by Carter Rila, "A Modern Mystery: Cutlass or Klewang? The Elusive U.S. Navy Cutlass Variant of WWII" 'Journal of the Company of Military Historians" Vol.27, #4, Winter, 1975 Apparently these Dutch 'cutlasses' were copied by an Ohio company in WWII (1942) for the U.S. Navy. It seems these kinds of influences not only affected the swords for the private uses suggested with this one, but for further military use as well. Attached Images

29th October 2020, 08:16 AM	#2
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	I don't like the word tourist, I think decorative would be better. Question: do you have a sharp blade? The clip point blade is not Japanese. About the argument "tourist sabre or something like that. Then the same sabre would appear more often" could be turn into "real sword would appear more often"... Is someone know if Japanese did such kind of swords? Or if the Chinese did this kind of fantasy swords? It's a nice sword btw

29th October 2020, 11:15 PM	#5
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,235	It is the techniques, form and style that are puzzling me. The casted hilt, rivited with 2 rivits The scabbard of brass, made of 2 halves and soldered together The kala (?) head at the bottom, also soldered The screw at the bottom. The japanese style blade. indeed with a clip point. but the overal impression to me is that of a katana. The lock system, well where have I seen that before. again the katana. The techniques suggest that it has been made in some kind of series, this is definately not a unique piece of hand work. I wonder if more turn up. Keep an eye on ALiexpess

30th October 2020, 12:23 AM	#7
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	The blade is not Japanese only the habaki, the seppa (soldered or moulded to the guard that's strange) and the lock system only on shin gunto so the sword has to be post wwII The rest is very Javanese as noted. I will be curious if someone can explain this mystery...