Cuphilt sword for comment

Jim McDougall · 19th October 2020, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Thanks, Jim. I was lucky enough to win this one on an eBay auction quite a while back. I had never thought about the subtle nuances in the decoration to this item. The 'refinements' do stand out from others I've seen. I like your thinking that perhaps it was an officer's grade rapier! I also truly like Shayde's rough and tumble example with saltwater-corroded blade. It just screams "Spanish Main" to me!

The styling, fine rim on the cup, and grip especially, suggest more officers grade. While of course there will be argument that these were used in the Continent, it was officers FROM the Continent who were aboard the vessels in so many cases. The cup hilt remained the favored Spanish form sword especially in the colonies well beyond its cessation of regular use in Europe.

Will M · 19th October 2020, 06:27 PM

This thread has pushed me over the edge! I've always thought of possibly adding one of these swords to my collection, though I've procrastinated in an effort to keep my collecting focused.
Just what I need another branching off in my collecting!
It is all very interesting.

shayde78 · 19th October 2020, 07:28 PM

...and i'm derelict in mentioning how beautiful the other examples posted are. I'd love to bring them all together and let them share stories like a function at a VFW hall.

I do suspect there could be an inscription in the fuller, but I don't believe it could be uncovered without severely altering this blade, and with no guarantee that any inscription would still be present (if it ever existed).

Jim, as for the rompepuntas, not that my example has this feature, but I believe these were a very pragmatic refinement. I know sport fencing doesn't have a lot of bearing on how historical weapons were used, but if I may digress, as an epee fencer I often made use of a technique of glancing my tip on the edge of my opponent's bell and scoring a touch on the hand since there was nothing to stop the point from sliding off the guard and striking the fingers/wrist behind. I have to imagine that this was something that occurred frequently enough when using live blades that rolling the edge of a cup guard to 'catch' the tip made good sense. I don't presume that this allowed tips to be snapped off, or served as 'sword catchers', but still useful.

Also, regarding the guardopolvo - I didn't know this term until I started researching my new acquisition. Initially, I couldn't figure out why something deep in the guard would be called a dust protector. However, I may have come to a conclusion that is plausible - Given the frequency with which guards, hilts, and blades were swapped and interchanged, these components wouldn't be crafted to tight specifications, but rather with some tolerances to allow for greater compatibility. The ivory wedges used as shims on Jim's piece shows the need to marry parts that don't exactly fit perfectly.

For a cup guard, the guard itself is not the easiest component to manufacture. It doesn't take a master, per se, but still, it takes time that could be spent elsewhere. So, if one wanted to make a guard that could be used on multiple blades, or one has a guard that doesn't fit snugly to the blade, the smith could craft a simply plate that both serves as a spacer, AND closes any gaps between the blade and the guard. Functionally, this would prevent dust and debris from falling into the cup and then making their way through the gap along the blade into the sword's sheath. Cup hilts would have been particularly susceptible to this problem because the cup is essentially a funnel for all matter of gunk. I can't think of another hilt design that would allow for so much debris to be channeled right into the scabbard when sheathed. Hence, the name 'dust guard' for a simple plate that serves as a spacer/shim, reinforcement for the guard, and yes, a dust protector.

I fully expect that others already knew this, but one thing I love about collecting is that I get to hold in my hand something not only artistic, but intended to be fully functional. For utilitarian pieces such as these, each element served a purpose. I enjoy reverse engineering to try to reach into the past and understand the mind of the craftspeople who made them and the people who used them to defend their own lives.

Will, now that I have my own, and won't need to compete with you as a bidder, by all means, take the plunge! It seems your collection is focused on American colonial/Revolutionary period items. I feel like one of these would fit right in

Jim McDougall · 19th October 2020, 08:50 PM

Shayde, that is an absolutely thorough and fascinating look into this topic, and especially interesting on the rompepuntas from a fencing perspective. Thank you for going into this detail as I find these aspects really intriguing.
\
Very good points on the dust guard situation also, its always good to hear these insights from a swordsman.

Well noted on these Spanish colonial swords as far as the American Revolution, the Spaniards were far more involved in these matters than is commonly known. While not necessarily involved formally in large degree with forces (except later in a few cases) they were very supportive financially and with supplies, weapons etc. "Swords and Blades of the American Revolution" (Nuemann, 1973) gives revealing insights into the spectrum of European swords that found use. I dont recall cuphilts, but where there were bilbo's, there were cup hilts.

M ELEY · 19th October 2020, 11:52 PM

Excellent discussion, gentlemen! I have also always been drawn like a moth to the flame with these Spanish colonial pieces. What they may lack in their refinement (compared to their European brethren), they more than make up for in their colorful past! Will, it sounds like you've been bit by the Spanish colonial bug! Welcome to the club! We have our own hats!

Shayne, that is a fascinating approach to collecting! It is interesting, as noted, the differences in these New World pieces versus their more decorative cousins. It would seem that both use in the western hemisphere in the 'backwaters', such frivolities were not needed, so we see a munitions grade piece built for function and not necessarily to impress. As far as time period, as Jim has pointed out, they saw a long life on this side of the pond. Cup hilts probably started coming over as soon as the early 17th century, but the first types were probably the European versions. The true Caribbean models probably developed mid-17th? and used all the way up to the end of the 18th c. Harold Peterson covers their usage in the Americas in his volume "Arms and Armor in Colonial America 1526-1783, and of course there's Brincherhoff's "Swords and Blades in Colonial America" are great resource materials.

My blade has a lot of 'bend' to it when flexed and would work excellently as a thrusting weapon, but its edge could also slash. Although sword dueling on the deck ala Errol Flynn is a fantasy, as Jim states these would have been carried also by soldiers guarding port garrisons like St Augustine and San Juan. They undoubtedly saw sea service in that the Treasure Fleets had soldiers aboard guarding the specie. Strictly speaking, I feel they could have been used quite effectively, but not in overhand slashing (the decks of ships were too tight, the ropes and spars just waiting to catch a swung blade). When ships were about to be attacked and boarded, they almost always put up thick netting like curtains to discourage the boarding parties. The thick cordage attached to the rail and ran up to the upper spars, creating a weblike cover over the exposed deck. The nets often had wire enmeshed in it to add to its toughness. Aggressors clambering up over the side would thus be met with a protective screen with defenders armed with boarding pikes (short spears of 6-7' length) stabbing at them through the rigging. Now imagine these rapiers, with their long blades, thrusting through the gaps to "discourage" the onslaught! Make no mistakes, sea weapons, just like other weapon types (cavalry swords, briquets, gunner's stilettos) had their usages. Boarding axes were fire/deck cleaning tools first and weapons second. A belay pin held the rigging in place, but made an excellent club in combat. I feel the cup hilts could hold their own in these very concentrated, very unique battle settings.

M ELEY · 21st October 2020, 05:36 PM

Shayde, you mentioned the possibility it is marked? Interesting. Perhaps a very conservative cleaning of the area you suspect??

shayde78 · 22nd October 2020, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Shayde, you mentioned the possibility it is marked? Interesting. Perhaps a very conservative cleaning of the area you suspect??

The way the corrosion looks in the fuller suggests there could be font there. However, I cannot get it to photograph in a meaningful way, and I'm not sure how to gently get down to that level of the metal to be able to determine. I'll see if I can play around enough with lighting to get the faint trace I think I see to appear in a photograph. Of course, I may well be chasing a ghost...or a phantom that was never there to begin with

Also, thank you for the details concerning weapons use on the decks of a ship. Following your posts over the years, I know you've built your knowledge and have become something of an expert in this regard. The insights are appreciated!

19th October 2020, 07:28 PM	#3
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	...and i'm derelict in mentioning how beautiful the other examples posted are. I'd love to bring them all together and let them share stories like a function at a VFW hall. I do suspect there could be an inscription in the fuller, but I don't believe it could be uncovered without severely altering this blade, and with no guarantee that any inscription would still be present (if it ever existed). Jim, as for the rompepuntas, not that my example has this feature, but I believe these were a very pragmatic refinement. I know sport fencing doesn't have a lot of bearing on how historical weapons were used, but if I may digress, as an epee fencer I often made use of a technique of glancing my tip on the edge of my opponent's bell and scoring a touch on the hand since there was nothing to stop the point from sliding off the guard and striking the fingers/wrist behind. I have to imagine that this was something that occurred frequently enough when using live blades that rolling the edge of a cup guard to 'catch' the tip made good sense. I don't presume that this allowed tips to be snapped off, or served as 'sword catchers', but still useful. Also, regarding the guardopolvo - I didn't know this term until I started researching my new acquisition. Initially, I couldn't figure out why something deep in the guard would be called a dust protector. However, I may have come to a conclusion that is plausible - Given the frequency with which guards, hilts, and blades were swapped and interchanged, these components wouldn't be crafted to tight specifications, but rather with some tolerances to allow for greater compatibility. The ivory wedges used as shims on Jim's piece shows the need to marry parts that don't exactly fit perfectly. For a cup guard, the guard itself is not the easiest component to manufacture. It doesn't take a master, per se, but still, it takes time that could be spent elsewhere. So, if one wanted to make a guard that could be used on multiple blades, or one has a guard that doesn't fit snugly to the blade, the smith could craft a simply plate that both serves as a spacer, AND closes any gaps between the blade and the guard. Functionally, this would prevent dust and debris from falling into the cup and then making their way through the gap along the blade into the sword's sheath. Cup hilts would have been particularly susceptible to this problem because the cup is essentially a funnel for all matter of gunk. I can't think of another hilt design that would allow for so much debris to be channeled right into the scabbard when sheathed. Hence, the name 'dust guard' for a simple plate that serves as a spacer/shim, reinforcement for the guard, and yes, a dust protector. I fully expect that others already knew this, but one thing I love about collecting is that I get to hold in my hand something not only artistic, but intended to be fully functional. For utilitarian pieces such as these, each element served a purpose. I enjoy reverse engineering to try to reach into the past and understand the mind of the craftspeople who made them and the people who used them to defend their own lives. Will, now that I have my own, and won't need to compete with you as a bidder, by all means, take the plunge! It seems your collection is focused on American colonial/Revolutionary period items. I feel like one of these would fit right in Last edited by shayde78; 20th October 2020 at 01:46 AM.

19th October 2020, 06:27 PM	#2
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 394	This thread has pushed me over the edge! I've always thought of possibly adding one of these swords to my collection, though I've procrastinated in an effort to keep my collecting focused. Just what I need another branching off in my collecting! It is all very interesting.

19th October 2020, 08:50 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Shayde, that is an absolutely thorough and fascinating look into this topic, and especially interesting on the rompepuntas from a fencing perspective. Thank you for going into this detail as I find these aspects really intriguing. \ Very good points on the dust guard situation also, its always good to hear these insights from a swordsman. Well noted on these Spanish colonial swords as far as the American Revolution, the Spaniards were far more involved in these matters than is commonly known. While not necessarily involved formally in large degree with forces (except later in a few cases) they were very supportive financially and with supplies, weapons etc. "Swords and Blades of the American Revolution" (Nuemann, 1973) gives revealing insights into the spectrum of European swords that found use. I dont recall cuphilts, but where there were bilbo's, there were cup hilts.

19th October 2020, 11:52 PM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Excellent discussion, gentlemen! I have also always been drawn like a moth to the flame with these Spanish colonial pieces. What they may lack in their refinement (compared to their European brethren), they more than make up for in their colorful past! Will, it sounds like you've been bit by the Spanish colonial bug! Welcome to the club! We have our own hats! Shayne, that is a fascinating approach to collecting! It is interesting, as noted, the differences in these New World pieces versus their more decorative cousins. It would seem that both use in the western hemisphere in the 'backwaters', such frivolities were not needed, so we see a munitions grade piece built for function and not necessarily to impress. As far as time period, as Jim has pointed out, they saw a long life on this side of the pond. Cup hilts probably started coming over as soon as the early 17th century, but the first types were probably the European versions. The true Caribbean models probably developed mid-17th? and used all the way up to the end of the 18th c. Harold Peterson covers their usage in the Americas in his volume "Arms and Armor in Colonial America 1526-1783, and of course there's Brincherhoff's "Swords and Blades in Colonial America" are great resource materials. My blade has a lot of 'bend' to it when flexed and would work excellently as a thrusting weapon, but its edge could also slash. Although sword dueling on the deck ala Errol Flynn is a fantasy, as Jim states these would have been carried also by soldiers guarding port garrisons like St Augustine and San Juan. They undoubtedly saw sea service in that the Treasure Fleets had soldiers aboard guarding the specie. Strictly speaking, I feel they could have been used quite effectively, but not in overhand slashing (the decks of ships were too tight, the ropes and spars just waiting to catch a swung blade). When ships were about to be attacked and boarded, they almost always put up thick netting like curtains to discourage the boarding parties. The thick cordage attached to the rail and ran up to the upper spars, creating a weblike cover over the exposed deck. The nets often had wire enmeshed in it to add to its toughness. Aggressors clambering up over the side would thus be met with a protective screen with defenders armed with boarding pikes (short spears of 6-7' length) stabbing at them through the rigging. Now imagine these rapiers, with their long blades, thrusting through the gaps to "discourage" the onslaught! Make no mistakes, sea weapons, just like other weapon types (cavalry swords, briquets, gunner's stilettos) had their usages. Boarding axes were fire/deck cleaning tools first and weapons second. A belay pin held the rigging in place, but made an excellent club in combat. I feel the cup hilts could hold their own in these very concentrated, very unique battle settings.

21st October 2020, 05:36 PM	#6
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Shayde, you mentioned the possibility it is marked? Interesting. Perhaps a very conservative cleaning of the area you suspect??