Cuphilt sword for comment

[M ELEY]

Great piece with terrific character!! Not much more to add than what Jim has already succinctly covered. They were indeed from the Spanish Main during the later era of piracy and have naval connotation in that they were carried aboard the Treasure Fleets by Spanish soldiers defending the gold. Although a cut/thrust weapon, they definitely saw use at sea. They really define the adventurous era of the West Indies in the New World. Congrats!

[Victrix]

Nice sword! It looks like it could have been at sea. The blade looks a bit like the ”NO ME SAQUES RAZON / NE ME EMBAINES SIN HONOR,” (DO NOT DRAW ME WITHOUT REASON, DO NOT SHEATH ME WITHOUT HONOR) type popular at the time (see attached pics of bilbo). The ricasso is inline with the sword but the grip with guard is a bit off in terms of positioning. Maybe the wood has shifted due to age/submerged in seawater? Sometimes the ricasso has a maker’s mark. You can investigate using a small mirror to see better. The ferrules may be from a metal that don’t oxidate as much, e.g. pewter? The pommel has an unusual mushroom shape, and may be a replacement. It seems to be screwed on to the tang? Jim’s example is peened to the tang.

[M ELEY]

Victrix, you bring up an excellent point and it is possible that we are looking at saltwater errosion here. While many of these types were made from various odds and ends the smiths could come by in New Spain, this pommel I feel is authentic to the blade. The caribbean type rapiers distinguish themselves from their European counterparts by having these traits (no rompe-puntas, mushroom pommels, plain unpierced/undecorated guards, flat horn/wood grips often square in crosscut, and sometimes braised elements to the arms of the hilt/pas de' ann). Here's pics of mine-

[Jim McDougall]

Capn, that is a SUPERB example!!!! Beautiful ebony grip, nicely turned quillon terminals and the edge around the cup a nice touch. I think one of the best examples of these I've seen.
Mine I am sure has been reworked of course as the ivory spacers reveal a circumstance in refurbishing, and as noted the hilt has been peened.
Still traces of japanning and must have had a long working life.

Yours is a fine example which likely would have been an officers aboard a vessel. Outstanding.

Victrix- great call on the 'Spanish motto' blade!!

[M ELEY]

Thanks, Jim. I was lucky enough to win this one on an eBay auction quite a while back. I had never thought about the subtle nuances in the decoration to this item. The 'refinements' do stand out from others I've seen. I like your thinking that perhaps it was an officer's grade rapier! I also truly like Shayde's rough and tumble example with saltwater-corroded blade. It just screams "Spanish Main" to me!

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Thanks, Jim. I was lucky enough to win this one on an eBay auction quite a while back. I had never thought about the subtle nuances in the decoration to this item. The 'refinements' do stand out from others I've seen. I like your thinking that perhaps it was an officer's grade rapier! I also truly like Shayde's rough and tumble example with saltwater-corroded blade. It just screams "Spanish Main" to me!

The styling, fine rim on the cup, and grip especially, suggest more officers grade. While of course there will be argument that these were used in the Continent, it was officers FROM the Continent who were aboard the vessels in so many cases. The cup hilt remained the favored Spanish form sword especially in the colonies well beyond its cessation of regular use in Europe.

[Will M]

This thread has pushed me over the edge! I've always thought of possibly adding one of these swords to my collection, though I've procrastinated in an effort to keep my collecting focused.
Just what I need another branching off in my collecting!
It is all very interesting.

[shayde78]

Thanks everyone for the great feedback!
I knew I could expect the three of you to appreciate the well-worn nature of this piece. Jim frequently cautions about polishing off the history of these old warriors, and I take that to heart. I also thought of Mark since, like Vitrix,I wondered if this had been exposed to saltwater. I didn't want to prejudice the comments by suggesting this outright, but am heartened to hear others share this impression.

One thing that amazes me is how, after hundreds of years, these retain their edge. This one shows some clear nicks that look to be caused by another sharp edge. I will try to upload pictures of these details soon.

Also, I wanted to clarify - this sword DOES have the guardo polvo. YOu can make it out in the 4th picture of the original post. It is a simple diamond shape, and you can see on the exterior of the cup the large rivets holding it in place (transverse of the rivets securing the pas d-ans). Does this narrow down age attribution, or does this muddy things more?

I have a question about the flexibility of the blades on these and other side/arming swords from this time period. Unlike swords of earlier periods, those of this era were being issued to soldiers that were not part of a knightly class, and therefore (possibly) were not as proficient in their use. Was the flex tempered into these blades designed to allow them to withstand poorly executed thrusts and cuts? Or, was this a feature even well trained swordsmen would have favored. After all, if one thrust and contacted a steel breastplate, you might want a degree of flex to ensure the blade didn't fail.

Finally, for now, what would be carried in the off/left hand. This is not the most responsive weapon in terms of providing both an effective offense and defense. If indeed these were carried at sea, I could see a stout pistol serving this purpose. Or any nondescript knife. I'm asking simply to see if there was a convention, or one used whatever was at hand.

Thanks again for you insights! To be honest, I love when you give me good news, but it is always educational

[Jim McDougall]

It has been a great discussion and wonderful to see these wonderful cup hilts together! Thank you Shayde for recognizing my position on maintaining as much of the well earned patina on the 'old warriors', as to me it profoundly heralds the charm and rugged character of the times they have seen.

With regard to these 'going to sea', it was virtually inevitable that many of them did in one way or another. The constant traffic to the 'New World' meant that these among many other forms of sword, particularly 'cutlasses' became present there with men off the vessels.

By the 'dictum' from "Pirates of the Caribbean', there were no 'rules' ......but 'guidelines' as far as swords, their use, etc.

Aboard ships of the line of course, the average sailors were not officially armed with edged weapons, but these were distributed out of arms lockers in the event of potential combat. With the ever present merchant ships, there was certainly more latitude depending on the owners and staff of the vessels, but still there would certainly be the option of having a sword or cutlass for various levels of staff aboard.

With the 'brotherhood' of 'pirates' of course, a broad spectrum indeed, it would seem these vessels were of course autonomous and the members of the ships crew would choose thier own arms.

From what I have understood, combat aboard the decks of vessels was not as common as portrayed in movies via popular literature, and swords and cutlasses were far more employed ashore by the crews at locations of destination or replenishing. In this respect the cutlass was more a 'machete' and used in that utilitariian sense.
The swords (i.e. cuphilts, bilbo's etc) were there in case of combat, whether defensive or offensive.

Well noted that most crews, sailors or other members aboard ships were certainly not typically trained in swordsmanship, while officers usually were in some degree. This factor would lead to the more instinctive use of the 'blade' in more a 'hacking' manner, and call for much stouter blades, as would be expected in most combat circumstances. Naturally, blades are designed for optimum conditions presuming they will be used properly so flexibility is always a consideration. Without it, a blade will inevitably fail at some point.

The long working lives of these swords, particularly the blades ,which often ended up being remounted or repurposed, is the most fascinating factor of them. The Spanish 'dragoon' blades were widely used in the colonies for other weapons beyond simple replacement on the bilbo's and cup hilts, and became present on the 'common' espada anchas in many cases, typically cut down.

There is so much history in these rugged Caribbean forms that its hard to not go on and on but Shayde, VERY well placed questions, and I hope any of this rambling wiill be useful.

On the hilt elements, the 'guardopolvo'is essentially a 'dust guard', though its actual purpose was more to firmly secure the tang of the blade in the cup.
My example has 'ivory' (?) placers wedged in from whateever refurbishing was done on it.

The 'rompepuntas' is the rolled edge around the cup, and theoretically was to foul the point of a rapier in a thrust attack, which of course falls into the sword catcher theory well known in arms descriptions. Personally it seems to me more a refinement in construction and execution of hilt design.