Austrian Zischägge/lobsterpot helmet

Raf · 12th October 2020, 02:09 PM

Nice graphic. Perhaps you need to add a blind ( decorative } rivit head at the point of your red arrow to make it clear that the rivit head you see on the outside of the tail isn't the same as the one securing the leather . Except at the top and bottom of the articulated section. Although the center strap isn't strictly speaking necessary the assumption is that the springiness of the leather helped the lames to fold in an orderly fashion and not get stuck or rattle around.

Victrix · 12th October 2020, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Besides the possible function the leather straps perform in controlling the articulation, one must consider that, one lame itself can not roll up more than to a limited point, as it meets the upper lame.
Does this make any sense ?
.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raf

Nice graphic. Perhaps you need to add a blind ( decorative } rivit head at the point of your red arrow to make it clear that the rivit head you see on the outside of the tail isn't the same as the one securing the leather . Except at the top and bottom of the articulated section. Although the center strap isn't strictly speaking necessary the assumption is that the springiness of the leather helped the lames to fold in an orderly fashion and not get stuck or rattle around.

This is great. I feel I learned so much about a hitherto neglected part of an object from my perspective. Now I know more what to look for when I next handle armour, especially Zischägge.

fernando · 12th October 2020, 08:10 PM

For some relaxation, let me show how an artist views a functional nasal bar.

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fernando · 12th October 2020, 08:16 PM

And in case you don't fancy such solution, you can always opt for the hinged three bar version, like this 1640 harquebusier real thing.
(British National Army Museum)

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Victrix · 17th October 2020, 10:57 AM

When looking through ”Armourers’ Marks” (1959) by Dudley S Hawtrey Gyngell I noticed how armourers in Innsbruck, Austria in 16thC used their initials (one or two letters) as maker’s marks.

My helmet is marked with a Gothic ”S” on the bottom lame on the neck guard which is probably the maker’s mark from Innsbruck, Austria or elsewhere in the Tyrol.

Victrix · 3rd May 2021, 09:25 AM

I saw some interesting and relevant pictures in Peter Krenn and Walter Karcheski’s “Imperial Austria, Treasures of Art, Arms & Armour from the State of Styria” (1998).

The first picture shows armour for an infantry or light cavalry officer, 1555-21, probably made in Innsbruck (Austria). Of interest here is the lobed edges/heartshaped rounded crenelations on the top of the armour plates which is similar to my zischägge. There are also brass rivets (presumably removed from my helmet).

The second picture shows armour for a hussar: cuirass, mail shirt and Hungarian-style helmet (zischägge), 1590-1600, made in Graz. Interestingly the helmet skull is fluted. This type of helmet originated in Turkey/Ottoman empire known as cicek and was adopted in Eastern Europe in 16thC and Western Europe in 17thC.

The third picture shows an interior view of the Landeszeughaus Graz (armoury) with another classic medieval hussar outfit on the right, again with a fluted helmet. The fluted area helps to absorb stun impacts by maces and war hammers popular in Eastern Europe and the Ottoman empire.

Dmitry · 4th May 2021, 04:11 PM

Victirix, that's a beautiful zischagge / burgonet.
I wonder why the neck protection on most of these helmets was composed from several lames, as opposed to a single piece of metal. It's certainly more time-consuming, more expensive to produce laminated armor than beat it out of a single piece.
Being that the articulated movement of the lames is unnecessary, my questions are:
Does laminating make the neck-piece stronger than a one-piece construction?
Does it make it lighter?
Does it make it easier to repair than one-piece construction?
What other benefits are to the laminated construction vs. one-piece?

One possible reason, in my opinion, is that lamination allowed for a better dispersion and/or absorption of force when struck, attenuating the kinetic energy applied to the neck piece, whereas the one-piece neck protection would not have that "give", and would transmit the force to the helmet body, potentially with a fatal result.

12th October 2020, 08:10 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	For some relaxation, let me show how an artist views a functional nasal bar. . Attached Images

12th October 2020, 08:16 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	And in case you don't fancy such solution, you can always opt for the hinged three bar version, like this 1640 harquebusier real thing. (British National Army Museum) . Attached Images

17th October 2020, 10:57 AM	#5
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 763	When looking through ”Armourers’ Marks” (1959) by Dudley S Hawtrey Gyngell I noticed how armourers in Innsbruck, Austria in 16thC used their initials (one or two letters) as maker’s marks. My helmet is marked with a Gothic ”S” on the bottom lame on the neck guard which is probably the maker’s mark from Innsbruck, Austria or elsewhere in the Tyrol. Attached Images

3rd May 2021, 09:25 AM	#6
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 763	I saw some interesting and relevant pictures in Peter Krenn and Walter Karcheski’s “Imperial Austria, Treasures of Art, Arms & Armour from the State of Styria” (1998). The first picture shows armour for an infantry or light cavalry officer, 1555-21, probably made in Innsbruck (Austria). Of interest here is the lobed edges/heartshaped rounded crenelations on the top of the armour plates which is similar to my zischägge. There are also brass rivets (presumably removed from my helmet). The second picture shows armour for a hussar: cuirass, mail shirt and Hungarian-style helmet (zischägge), 1590-1600, made in Graz. Interestingly the helmet skull is fluted. This type of helmet originated in Turkey/Ottoman empire known as cicek and was adopted in Eastern Europe in 16thC and Western Europe in 17thC. The third picture shows an interior view of the Landeszeughaus Graz (armoury) with another classic medieval hussar outfit on the right, again with a fluted helmet. The fluted area helps to absorb stun impacts by maces and war hammers popular in Eastern Europe and the Ottoman empire. Attached Images Last edited by Victrix; 3rd May 2021 at 09:37 AM.

12th October 2020, 02:09 PM	#1
Raf Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 252	Nice graphic. Perhaps you need to add a blind ( decorative } rivit head at the point of your red arrow to make it clear that the rivit head you see on the outside of the tail isn't the same as the one securing the leather . Except at the top and bottom of the articulated section. Although the center strap isn't strictly speaking necessary the assumption is that the springiness of the leather helped the lames to fold in an orderly fashion and not get stuck or rattle around.

4th May 2021, 04:11 PM	#7
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Victirix, that's a beautiful zischagge / burgonet. I wonder why the neck protection on most of these helmets was composed from several lames, as opposed to a single piece of metal. It's certainly more time-consuming, more expensive to produce laminated armor than beat it out of a single piece. Being that the articulated movement of the lames is unnecessary, my questions are: Does laminating make the neck-piece stronger than a one-piece construction? Does it make it lighter? Does it make it easier to repair than one-piece construction? What other benefits are to the laminated construction vs. one-piece? One possible reason, in my opinion, is that lamination allowed for a better dispersion and/or absorption of force when struck, attenuating the kinetic energy applied to the neck piece, whereas the one-piece neck protection would not have that "give", and would transmit the force to the helmet body, potentially with a fatal result.