Austrian Zischägge/lobsterpot helmet

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Victrix

... As I argued previously I struggle to see the need for Zischagge lobstertail neck guards to articulate a lot as we don’t bend our necks backward (or necks break) so question how mobile these were..

The neck guard i showed doesn't move that much, nor should all others ... i think. I guess a little contraction is enough to allow the user to look upwards.

Originally Posted by Victrix

... The attached pictures show: 1) neck guard simulated lames, 2) lobstertail neck guard articulating lames, 3) Zischägge types and 4) from Eduard Wagner’s ”European Weapons & Warfare 1618-1648” (1979).

Nice images. I gather that the drawings in 3) show the effect of an 'abnormal' articulation capacity; i would say artistic's freedom. But i know nothing ... and am not to be trusted .

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by fernando

The neck guard i showed doesn't move that much, nor should all others ... i think. I guess a little contraction is enough to allow the user to look upwards.


Nice images. I gather that the drawings in 3) show the effect of an 'abnormal' articulation capacity; i would say artistic's freedom. But i know nothing ... and am not to be trusted .

I wish I could get my hands on a few of these Zischägge now to investigate . I can’t remember properly, but seem to recall that the lobstertail neck guard lames just rattle a bit when you handle them. Never paid them much attention in the past to be honest. But maybe the Zischägge in pristine original condition do have wonderfully articulating lames. Something to look out for when I get the opportunity to handle one next!

[Raf]

Sorry to be picky but I think its important when posting reference examples to stick to ones where the authenticity is well established. Their are some good examples on this site , but also ones where legitimate questions have been raised. Attached images are from a well established supplier located in Lithuania. To avoid confusion these are modern copies.

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by Raf

Sorry to be picky but I think its important when posting reference examples to stick to ones where the authenticity is well established. Their are some good examples on this site , but also ones where legitimate questions have been raised. Attached images are from a well established supplier located in Lithuania. To avoid confusion these are modern copies.

Point taken. Those modern copies you posted look extremely well made. I’m a bona fide history enthusiast with a curious mind who is slowly amassing a small armoury of military antiques. I was not aware that any reference examples I posted had legitimate questions raised about their authenticity?

[kronckew]

A small note on sliding nasal bars. Many could be worn with the bulbous part at the top, then inverted to provide more facial coverage before entering battle.

I suspect the OP's nasal was, in use, a bit straighter & bent later in life. It may be possible to rotate it if the wing screw is removed so the small protruding stud at the base will fit through, acting as a grip when down, and a stop to keep it from falling out when up. I also suppose that the missing rivet holes may have been for attaching a liner and or aventail of sorts.

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by kronckew

A small note on sliding nasal bars. Many could be worn with the bulbous part at the top, then inverted to provide more facial coverage before entering battle.

I suspect the OP's nasal was, in use, a bit straighter & bent later in life. It may be possible to rotate it if the wing screw is removed so the small protruding stud at the base will fit through, acting as a grip when down, and a stop to keep it from falling out when up. I also suppose that the missing rivet holes may have been for attaching a liner and or aventail of sorts.

Yes I think the missing rivets must have been used to hold leather straps for articulating lames and the lining. I just wonder why so many rivets are missing. There are marks around the holes from washers as well. If the studs were of precious metal they may have been salvaged at some point.

[fernando]

That reproduction example in the lower image of post #24 with that arcuated (empty) space towards the center, seems to fully suggest this is the functional articulated version.

[fernando]

Besides the possible function the leather straps perform in controlling the articulation, one must consider that, one lame itself can not roll up more than to a limited point, as it meets the upper lame.
Does this make any sense ?


.

[Raf]

Nice graphic. Perhaps you need to add a blind ( decorative } rivit head at the point of your red arrow to make it clear that the rivit head you see on the outside of the tail isn't the same as the one securing the leather . Except at the top and bottom of the articulated section. Although the center strap isn't strictly speaking necessary the assumption is that the springiness of the leather helped the lames to fold in an orderly fashion and not get stuck or rattle around.

[Raf]

Here is a good reference example originally posted by Cerjak on this site. Note that the rivits that articulate the tail (the outer rivits ) are not the same as the rivits securing the lining band on the articulated section.