English Dragoon sword with Possible Jacobite Connection

M ELEY · 29th September 2020, 09:26 PM

This is an amazing basket, Jim! Either way you look at it, such a sword could have been used in the "45". You bring up a compelling argument concerning the possible usage of French blades melded with whatever basket a Jacobite could lay his hands on (the Highlanders were also not above scavenging previous battlefields for weapons. That practice, certainly not unique to any particular people or conflict, could also be a factor). I know the fleur-de-lis was also found on some early English swords, however, so perhaps it's just an earlier blade? I've seen several of the English dog head swords of the 1680-1700 period with the 'de lis', causing confusion until I learned that some British makers also used them. We know that there were Scottish basket hilts presented to some of the French nobility for their support of the Rebellion, so again, isn't it possible that this sword might have a French connection to the 'Troubles'? That we might never know without some further clues. This is still far and away a great piece, Cap'n! Where you been hidin' it!?

Jim McDougall · 29th September 2020, 11:04 PM

Thank you Mark, as you say the fleur de lis is a symbol with wide use far beyond its familiar use in France. Very true some English blades had the FDL but unclear on the extent or associations. With these blades they seem to correspond to hanger type blades mostly of the 18th c. which were being supplied by Solingen to France, England and others.

For the most part weapons production in most countries in these times was focused primarily on muskets and black powder. Edged weapons were mostly munitions commodities and blades were acquired by cutlers who produced hilts and assembled them in varying volume.

It is hard to say where this blade and hilt came together, but the elements are late 17th to early 18th so certainly pre Culloden. These hilts were made in the 'garrison' towns and various suppliers locations for British dragoon units, and may well have been remounted in ersatz circumstances for the '45 rising.
There was distinct support for the Jacobites in France, Ireland and even England and these blades and hilts were well circulating as both troops and arms were being assembled.

I have always thought the paltry number of swords recovered from the field at Culloden (190) was highly suspect. The number of swords taken by forces leaving the field in the immediate aftermath cannot be surmised. Cumberlands forces guarded the field for days after to ensure the Highland wounded could not be attended to or were summarily finished, so looting or souvenir taking was unlikely I would think.

There were so many forces in the Highland ranks using whatever arms they could bring, so no telling the many types which might have been there.

Victrix · 30th September 2020, 03:15 PM

Yes that’s an amazing sword, Jim. Lots of history in that one. Love the patina. I visited the battlefield of Culloden once when I was in Scotland. Some of the Scotsmen managed to escape to safety in Sweden: ” After the Battle of Culloden in 1745, one George Carnegie, who in the battle had fought against his elder brother, fled to the hills of Flenesk and Glenmark with James Carnegie, Laird of Balnamoon and an Ochterlony of Guynd. The three rebels shortly escaped in an open boat from Montrose, were picked up by a Swedish ship, and landed safely in Gothenburg.” (Source: https://electricscotland.com/history/sweden/18.htm)

Jim McDougall · 1st October 2020, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix

Yes that’s an amazing sword, Jim. Lots of history in that one. Love the patina. I visited the battlefield of Culloden once when I was in Scotland. Some of the Scotsmen managed to escape to safety in Sweden: ” After the Battle of Culloden in 1745, one George Carnegie, who in the battle had fought against his elder brother, fled to the hills of Flenesk and Glenmark with James Carnegie, Laird of Balnamoon and an Ochterlony of Guynd. The three rebels shortly escaped in an open boat from Montrose, were picked up by a Swedish ship, and landed safely in Gothenburg.” (Source: https://electricscotland.com/history/sweden/18.htm)

Thank you so much!!! and especially for adding the story!
That is entirely the whole reason for the life's course I began so young, because I loved history, and the swords were iconic.
How amazing it must have been to see Culloden. In our family geneology of course they were Highlanders, and we had ancestors out in both the '15 and '45. The other clans in our ancestry of course were also deeply involved in much other of the history in the Highlands.

I had no idea of the Swedish situation, though I know Scots had been meercenaries in the North European regions much earlier. Prince Charlie ended up back in France, and I know there was a notable Jacobite diaspora after Culloden.

Victrix · 2nd October 2020, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you so much!!! and especially for adding the story!
That is entirely the whole reason for the life's course I began so young, because I loved history, and the swords were iconic.
How amazing it must have been to see Culloden. In our family geneology of course they were Highlanders, and we had ancestors out in both the '15 and '45. The other clans in our ancestry of course were also deeply involved in much other of the history in the Highlands.

I had no idea of the Swedish situation, though I know Scots had been meercenaries in the North European regions much earlier. Prince Charlie ended up back in France, and I know there was a notable Jacobite diaspora after Culloden.

Jim, Scotland is fantastic! Culloden is a very beautiful place but also a little sad.

Coincidentally my maternal grandfather’s grandmother was called Ouchterlony (Scottish descent). Her grandfather’s grandfather John Ouchterlony was from Dundee (near Montrose and the Guynd) and settled in Karlshamn, Sweden in 1748, where he became a merchant navy ship captain. I don’t know if he was at Culloden in 1746.

Jim McDougall · 3rd October 2020, 04:34 PM

Thank you so much Victrix! that's a wonderful but poignant photo, and it must have been amazing to have been on that hallowed ground.
It is difficult to say who was or wasn't at Culloden, for that matter exactly which groups were on which side, their reasons for fighting (the politics involved were anything but clear or consistent ) or what happened in the aftermath.

I know that at least some of my ancestral clan was there, MacKinnon's, and that they were involved in assisting Prince Charlie out of the Isles through Skye.

The wonder of these old weapons is that even though we cannot say for certain they were in a certain place or at a certain time or event, they illustrate the types and often serve as examples contemporary to them.
We can believe whatever we like, and in whatever degree.

Thank you for sharing this wonderful perspective!!!

M ELEY · 5th October 2020, 04:44 PM

The more and more I look at this sword, I love her!! Just an amazing piece of history. Jim, I think you hit it on the head when you mention the assortment of folks that really made up the Jacobite army. There were Scots, of course, as well as Irish to be sure. There was a large contingent of Catholic Frenchmen as well as disgruntled English soldiers as well. I wouldn't be at all surprised if there wasn't a sprinkling of other nationalities in this makeshift (but impassioned) force. Likewise, I know that those loyal to the crown had English, Irish and Scottish forces. I haven't read enough research to see if George's army might have likewise used mercenaries? In any case, not a clear cut usage of exact weaponry, uniforms, etc. I am so hoping to visit Scotland and Culloden someday.

29th September 2020, 09:26 PM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	This is an amazing basket, Jim! Either way you look at it, such a sword could have been used in the "45". You bring up a compelling argument concerning the possible usage of French blades melded with whatever basket a Jacobite could lay his hands on (the Highlanders were also not above scavenging previous battlefields for weapons. That practice, certainly not unique to any particular people or conflict, could also be a factor). I know the fleur-de-lis was also found on some early English swords, however, so perhaps it's just an earlier blade? I've seen several of the English dog head swords of the 1680-1700 period with the 'de lis', causing confusion until I learned that some British makers also used them. We know that there were Scottish basket hilts presented to some of the French nobility for their support of the Rebellion, so again, isn't it possible that this sword might have a French connection to the 'Troubles'? That we might never know without some further clues. This is still far and away a great piece, Cap'n! Where you been hidin' it!?

29th September 2020, 11:04 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Thank you Mark, as you say the fleur de lis is a symbol with wide use far beyond its familiar use in France. Very true some English blades had the FDL but unclear on the extent or associations. With these blades they seem to correspond to hanger type blades mostly of the 18th c. which were being supplied by Solingen to France, England and others. For the most part weapons production in most countries in these times was focused primarily on muskets and black powder. Edged weapons were mostly munitions commodities and blades were acquired by cutlers who produced hilts and assembled them in varying volume. It is hard to say where this blade and hilt came together, but the elements are late 17th to early 18th so certainly pre Culloden. These hilts were made in the 'garrison' towns and various suppliers locations for British dragoon units, and may well have been remounted in ersatz circumstances for the '45 rising. There was distinct support for the Jacobites in France, Ireland and even England and these blades and hilts were well circulating as both troops and arms were being assembled. I have always thought the paltry number of swords recovered from the field at Culloden (190) was highly suspect. The number of swords taken by forces leaving the field in the immediate aftermath cannot be surmised. Cumberlands forces guarded the field for days after to ensure the Highland wounded could not be attended to or were summarily finished, so looting or souvenir taking was unlikely I would think. There were so many forces in the Highland ranks using whatever arms they could bring, so no telling the many types which might have been there.

30th September 2020, 03:15 PM	#3
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 755	Yes that’s an amazing sword, Jim. Lots of history in that one. Love the patina. I visited the battlefield of Culloden once when I was in Scotland. Some of the Scotsmen managed to escape to safety in Sweden: ” After the Battle of Culloden in 1745, one George Carnegie, who in the battle had fought against his elder brother, fled to the hills of Flenesk and Glenmark with James Carnegie, Laird of Balnamoon and an Ochterlony of Guynd. The three rebels shortly escaped in an open boat from Montrose, were picked up by a Swedish ship, and landed safely in Gothenburg.” (Source: https://electricscotland.com/history/sweden/18.htm)

3rd October 2020, 04:34 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Thank you so much Victrix! that's a wonderful but poignant photo, and it must have been amazing to have been on that hallowed ground. It is difficult to say who was or wasn't at Culloden, for that matter exactly which groups were on which side, their reasons for fighting (the politics involved were anything but clear or consistent ) or what happened in the aftermath. I know that at least some of my ancestral clan was there, MacKinnon's, and that they were involved in assisting Prince Charlie out of the Isles through Skye. The wonder of these old weapons is that even though we cannot say for certain they were in a certain place or at a certain time or event, they illustrate the types and often serve as examples contemporary to them. We can believe whatever we like, and in whatever degree. Thank you for sharing this wonderful perspective!!!

5th October 2020, 04:44 PM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	The more and more I look at this sword, I love her!! Just an amazing piece of history. Jim, I think you hit it on the head when you mention the assortment of folks that really made up the Jacobite army. There were Scots, of course, as well as Irish to be sure. There was a large contingent of Catholic Frenchmen as well as disgruntled English soldiers as well. I wouldn't be at all surprised if there wasn't a sprinkling of other nationalities in this makeshift (but impassioned) force. Likewise, I know that those loyal to the crown had English, Irish and Scottish forces. I haven't read enough research to see if George's army might have likewise used mercenaries? In any case, not a clear cut usage of exact weaponry, uniforms, etc. I am so hoping to visit Scotland and Culloden someday.