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29th September 2020, 01:02 PM
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#1 |
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Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,632
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Hi Jim,
My contribution to your story. A Briquet of mine made by Gebruder Weyersberg and stamped with arsenal marks for Berne, Switzerland. I contacted a museum in Berne and was told that it was an N.C.O.'s sword from C1830. It has a false back edge running for approx 6 inches which you can just make out in the photograph. I haven't actually handled many of these Briquets but I don't remember seeing another with a false back edge. My Regards, Norman. |
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29th September 2020, 05:18 PM
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#2 | |
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Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 10,459
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Quote:
Thank you Norman, excellent entry!! and seeing these still being produced and used in 1830s, especially in Switzerland. It seems that beyond the 'Landsknechts' there is little discussed on the military of this country. Cap'n Mark, as always thank you for coming in, I knew ya would as the action word 'pirate' lurked here! and there just had to be at least a few of these in the arms lockers of the 'Brothers'. Good note on Paul Revere, whose being a silversmith drew a compelling parallel with this Paul Storr product, and illustrates how many guys who produced swords (as cutlers they acquired blades and made hilts) were indeed precious metal artisans. The best place to find such silversmiths in American context is "The American Sword" by Harold Peterson. Most of the editions include a section and roster of silversmiths (who often of course made pewter). Beyond that there are compendiums of such shops in antique references, but not sure about marks as hallmarks were for precious metal. However, in the Storr sword, his mark was in this brass hilt, and the hallmarks required by assayers of course absent, so maybe the same is true of pewter. |
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29th September 2020, 07:55 PM
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#3 |
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(deceased)
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
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Dear Jim, could you manage for a more accurate picture of the PS mark ?
I have turned the Internet upside down and didn't spot a minimum sign that Paul Storr was other than a magnificent silversmith; who has actually suplied some of his high end works to Portuguese aristrocatic families. The only connection with his contribution to the arms (sword) area would have been silver hilts; which we manage to imagine in a splendid sketch designed by Thomas Stothard, whose works were put into practice by Storr; although the one depicted here was never brought to life. So, despite Richard Bezdek book mentioning Paul Storr was a 'hilt maker and sword cutler' (per your words) i request your understanding that, this does not mean that such silver smith wizard would come down to integraly imitate a non British (sort of) sword, in cast brass, just for the fun of it. What for ? So, do you see a a chance that the PS mark on yor briquet was someone elses's ... or even some low profile brass caster using his initials ... . Last edited by fernando; 29th September 2020 at 08:13 PM. |
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29th September 2020, 08:41 PM
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#4 |
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Member
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: North Queensland, Australia
Posts: 189
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G'day Jim,
I wasn't aware that the British ever used this type of sword. They did have the so called "Spanish" pattern artillery short sword. What makes you think your briquet is British? Cheers, Bryce |
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29th September 2020, 11:27 PM
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#5 |
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Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 10,459
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Hi guys,
The first reference I recall showing this was a British form used by the artillery was in one of my first books, "European and American Arms" Claude Blair, 1962. Mr. Blair was a brilliant arms historian who provided some of the most reliable and intriguing material on arms that have become part of the literature well used over decades. He was always generous, helpful and insightful with assistance with many questions from novices, like me back in those early days. These appear as British in numbers of other references such as Wilkinson's books (before Robson) and I would have to go through notes to find the other references. I cannot imagine why these inexpensive munitions arms would not be used by British other ranks just as they were in virtually most European armies. I'll work on getting all the references together. With Storr being a silversmith, he is also listed as a 'hilt maker' in Bezdek, which was not at all unusual as craftsmen and artisans in those days often doubled with more 'mundane' functions. Since rather than 'sword makers', mostly there were 'cutlers' which means that these guys 'assembled' swords and sold them to government buyers or the colonels of regiments who were supplying thier troops. In his early days of course he would have cast metal hilts as brass was finally being permitted by the cutlers officials. I doubt if he was just 'playing' with brass, as hilt making was much needed to mount the blades for other ranks in the army units. Not sure what more pictures of the PS cartouche would achieve. Naturally, there is always a chance the initials could have been for another hilt maker, and I have searched through many years of references, Annis & May; Wilkinson; Robson; Southwick etc. but have yet to find anyone else with initials PS. These rebuttals are however inspiring, so as always, I'll keep looking. The entry in the very thorough work by Bezdek is as noted, compelling. I have not seen this kind of cartouche with initials on other briquets, and most markings seem to be units or issuance. |
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30th September 2020, 12:14 AM
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#6 |
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Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 10,459
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Just found this from a thread Feb. 2010:
Discussing a briquet, Fernando notes, '..I know the briquet didn't make the Brit's taste". In Robson ("British Military Swords", 1975), "...in the early years of the 19th c ordinary artillerymen were armed with a short, curved sword with brass knucklebow hilt, similar to the French infantry sword (briquet) ANIX (1800-01), ANXI (1802-03)". Paul Storr apparently ran the manufacturing workshop for the firm of Rundell, Bridge and Rundell from 1807 and became partner 1811-17. These partners were officially appointed goldsmiths and swordsmiths to King George III. In these times there were considerable concerns about foreign imports of swords and blades, and the treasury department would levy taxes on any foreign products. With these administrative matters things are pretty complex so I would only suggest that perhaps, the reason for a cartouche with initials in a munitions grade hilt might have been to indicate it was a legitimate product by a maker well known to the king. With marking on swords, particularly blades, it seems many, if not most instances concerning markings used are not only to indicate the maker, but often other administrative matters (usually the collective 'guild' mark is suggested). In Toledo, the espaderos del Rey were given marks that they were 'official' to the king, thus exempt from taxation etc. Without more complicated description, these kinds of matters are often behind the markings we find on weapons, with meanings now lost to us. As those making silver hilts or any items of precious metal, in addition to makers marks, there are several other 'assay' marks. In this case, it would seem the PS was simply an indicator of Mr Storr's work, and possibly with regard to the scenario suggested. |
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30th September 2020, 03:29 AM
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#7 |
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Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 10,459
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Doing more research, I looked in "London Silver Hilted Swords" by Leslie Southwick, 2001, and there is no reference to a maker of silver hilts for either Paul Storr, nor Thomas Stothard (1755-1834).
Stothard was a painter, illustrator and engraver, not a sword cutler, nor hilt maker. Storr is listed in "Swords and Sword Makers of England and Scotland" R. Bezdek, 2003. p.158......as goldsmith, silversmith, hilt maker, sword cutler. In "Swords for Sea Service", 1970, W.E.May and P.G.W.Annis, p.333 "...English silver hilt makers were compelled by law to put their marks on their work. Other men put their marks on scabbard lockets and ' even on hilts not made of silver'. Loxham is an example of the first and Francis Thurkle II (1791-1801) put his initials (FT) on many hilts regardless of the metal from which they were made. It would seem that while Storr was running the manufacturing for Rundell, Bridge and Rundell, who were indeed goldsmiths, silversmiths and retailers of swords, they were also appointed officially by King George III. Storr is not listed among silver hilt makers in the registers in the Southwick references suggesting he did not make silver hilts. He is listed mostly in various partnerships in Annis & May, most of which were goldsmiths, silver hilts and cutlers. While these precious metals artisans did produce swords as well as their works in metals, it seems reasonable that they did accept contracts for the production of hilts such as these cast brass hilts in number for mounting blades. In "European & American Arms" Claude Blair, 1962, p.97 (e) is a British foot artillery gunners sword , first half of 19th c. hilt of brass (incl. grip) curved SE blade 24". In "British Military Swords" John Wilkinson-Latham, 1966. #66 Foot artillery privates hanger c. 1814, blade23.5" On this example there is a makers mark on the shoulder of the blade which is indecipherable but may be Trotter. These are both identical to mine. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 30th September 2020 at 04:06 AM. |
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30th September 2020, 12:02 PM
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#8 | |||
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(deceased)
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
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Quote:
Quote:
The more extensive biographies that we find on PAUL STORR , the more distant stays the hypothesis that he engaged in copying and mass producing cast brass military armament. Quote:
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30th September 2020, 02:05 PM
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#9 | |
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Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 10,459
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Quote:
Well made points as always Fernando, and its always good to have opposing views. Naturally my suggestions are hypothetical, but based on the many years of going through material on makers etc. It was years ago that I got the notion (after seeing silver work by Paul Storr) that I thought that perhaps he might be the elusive PS in the cartouche on my briquet. My attempts at suggesting this to various antique dealers as well as other arms 'authorities' were summarily dismissed and quite honestly scoffed at. It was not until Bezdek that the most important note - of his ALSO being a hilt maker became key. Remember that as late as 2010 I still had decided this might be Spanish colonial, probably because of the heavy, unfullered almost wedge section blade. In the blacksmith grade blades sometimes found on the frontier type espada anchas these are well known. The position I have taken on the idea of an artisan who was working with precious metals, and a factory where facilities for casting and likely various fabrication of metalwork (as the Rundell's were also retailers with likely a spectrum of items). ...might have served for a contract of 'briquet' hilts. Clearly with the silver and gold items Paul Storr became famed for, a more mundane event such as casting brass hilts in such 'contract work' in his earlier career would not be heralded in records of these very common and little documented weapons. That was primarily the point I was making in this tale of 'the lowly briquet' (hence the title). As I had noted in previous post, makers working with silver who DID make hilts, often EVEN PLACED THEIR INITIALS ON HILTS THAT WERE NOT SILVER. However not all silversmiths who produced fine silverwork made hilts. As such they would have been included in the STRICTLY controlled conditions of the governing officials and treasury. While am sure that it would be tempting for a silversmith to create such a piece, there must be reasons why not more of the large number of silversmiths did not engage in these particular items. I would suspect that if they did, and each one who made a silver hilt one off, was then listed as a silver hilt maker, the volumes attending to records of these men would be impossibly profuse. The reason that it was so difficult to find information on Paul Storr among sword makers and production is that in this industry he was a minor player but included among other partners who were involved in the business. Even the most noted figures in various fields have lesser activities in thier earlier years which may not be considered salient in biographical material, in fact they may consider detrimental to that which they are noted for. The clearly pedestrian task of casting hilts in brass for a seemingly minor contract in the earlier period of Paul Storr's working life would not be a landmark event in his biography of his obviously stellar career. However, that an item such as this hilt bearing what may very well be his initials (as per the evidence suggested) would be remarkable, given the fact that these 'uninteresting' (as per your words) other ranks weapons have been largely discarded in nearly the same tonnage they were produced. That these weapons became so popular that they were copied in effect by virtually most European armies and remained in use well into the next century is testament to their use as a tool as much as weapon . However, their common rank among weapons has rendered them 'uninteresting' and therefore of little consequence in the collecting world. So again my purpose in sharing this now rather obscure sword is to illustrate the possibility of a most intriguing history which may be part of a much more stellar context in history. |
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