Coat of Arms of Coucy - messengers badge?

AHorsa · 24th September 2020, 12:44 PM

Thanks for your thoughts, Fernando. I do totally understand your points but it seems that there have been such plates for messengers. Please see these pieces from the MET:

https://www.metmuseum.org/search-results#!/search?q=messenger%20badge

As far as I understand, those have been worn on clothes.

I will check if I can find traces from rivets / nails on mine on the weekend

fernando · 24th September 2020, 05:32 PM

These MET people sure know an infinitely lot more about it than me; meaning i know nothing.
It is just that i find strange to hang a metalic shield on a thin fabric livery. Could they wear some thicker material ... even made of leather ?

.

AHorsa · 24th September 2020, 08:15 PM

When I think of thin woven fabrics I am totally with you - a metal shield won´t last long there. But me I know nothing too

And I have no idea what the clothes was like in that time.

fernando · 25th September 2020, 12:23 PM

For as thick as woven fabric may be, it doesn't stay steady (uninclined) with a 35 grams metal plaque. Maybe the (MET) expression that the badges were "worn on their clothing" is a simplistic way put it. We know that messengers wore tunics, but also capes (cloaks), obviously heavier. Also belt bags, as per second painting in #21); these would (could) be made in a harder material (leather), more consistent with a badge application.
And just for perusal, i have read that, in some cases, lances (spears) also made part of their symbolic attire.

.

AHorsa · 26th September 2020, 09:44 AM

Hi Fernando,

thanks for your remarks and the images! I think it will be hard to say if it belonged to a messenger and if so, where it was worn (except that it wasn´t worn on "light" clothing) unless we find a certainly defined / identified comparandum.

One observation I want to add for the piece´s history:
Looking at the six holes, it seems that three of them has a bulge (not sure if this is the right phrase) from beeing drilled less professional than those three on the edges which also has those outbursts. This makes me assume that the piece was once took off forcefully, than three new wholes where drilled and it was attached again.

fernando · 27th September 2020, 10:08 AM

Ye, some holes would have been made with rudimentary (medieval) drills and the others perforated with a spike... by a less skilled author, so to say.
But what have been the use for the second episode; stick it back in the same place or give it a new home, having nothing to do withs its primary purpose ?

AHorsa · 25th November 2020, 08:50 PM

Hello together,

while the precise usage is still unclear, I figured out that the red material was wax (I think seal wax) and a later supplement as it layed over the green corrosion layer. So I removed it and gave the piece a slight cleaning. Here is what it does look like now.

Best regards
Andreas

25th September 2020, 12:23 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	For as thick as woven fabric may be, it doesn't stay steady (uninclined) with a 35 grams metal plaque. Maybe the (MET) expression that the badges were "worn on their clothing" is a simplistic way put it. We know that messengers wore tunics, but also capes (cloaks), obviously heavier. Also belt bags, as per second painting in #21); these would (could) be made in a harder material (leather), more consistent with a badge application. And just for perusal, i have read that, in some cases, lances (spears) also made part of their symbolic attire. . Attached Images

26th September 2020, 09:44 AM	#5
AHorsa Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Rhineland Posts: 375	Hi Fernando, thanks for your remarks and the images! I think it will be hard to say if it belonged to a messenger and if so, where it was worn (except that it wasn´t worn on "light" clothing) unless we find a certainly defined / identified comparandum. One observation I want to add for the piece´s history: Looking at the six holes, it seems that three of them has a bulge (not sure if this is the right phrase) from beeing drilled less professional than those three on the edges which also has those outbursts. This makes me assume that the piece was once took off forcefully, than three new wholes where drilled and it was attached again. Attached Images Last edited by AHorsa; 26th September 2020 at 09:57 AM.

27th September 2020, 10:08 AM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Guessing ... Ye, some holes would have been made with rudimentary (medieval) drills and the others perforated with a spike... by a less skilled author, so to say. But what have been the use for the second episode; stick it back in the same place or give it a new home, having nothing to do withs its primary purpose ?

25th November 2020, 08:50 PM	#7
AHorsa Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Rhineland Posts: 375	Hello together, while the precise usage is still unclear, I figured out that the red material was wax (I think seal wax) and a later supplement as it layed over the green corrosion layer. So I removed it and gave the piece a slight cleaning. Here is what it does look like now. Best regards Andreas Attached Images

24th September 2020, 12:44 PM	#1
AHorsa Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Rhineland Posts: 375	Thanks for your thoughts, Fernando. I do totally understand your points but it seems that there have been such plates for messengers. Please see these pieces from the MET: https://www.metmuseum.org/search-results#!/search?q=messenger%20badge As far as I understand, those have been worn on clothes. I will check if I can find traces from rivets / nails on mine on the weekend

24th September 2020, 05:32 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	These MET people sure know an infinitely lot more about it than me; meaning i know nothing. It is just that i find strange to hang a metalic shield on a thin fabric livery. Could they wear some thicker material ... even made of leather ? . Attached Images

24th September 2020, 08:15 PM	#3
AHorsa Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Rhineland Posts: 375	When I think of thin woven fabrics I am totally with you - a metal shield won´t last long there. But me I know nothing too And I have no idea what the clothes was like in that time.