Coat of Arms of Coucy - messengers badge?

AHorsa · 24th September 2020, 07:14 AM

Would be possible I think but hard to proof.
Actually, I don't think it was fixed with rivets somewhere. There is no space for the rivet heads so that they would cause damage to the rim. From the example shown by Fernando and other similar pieces, it seems that appliques have been fixed to leather by rivets. That makes me assume that it was fixed (likely on a textile round) using a thread or so

fernando · 24th September 2020, 10:53 AM

Excelent find Andreas, that picture of a messenger

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I had (if i should) doubts about what kind of attire they wore, whether hard (armour) or soft clothes. In this case as shown, your badge would not be in the adequate material, but instead a textile one.
On the other hand, i would not agree that your example was fixed to wherever place by tying it with thread; besides being too soft to hold metal edges, the hole in the lower (V) corner would not be in the convenient position for thread binding.
I would bet on it to be riveted (nailed) to a hard material; leather, wood (a chest), metal ... whatever.

AHorsa · 24th September 2020, 12:44 PM

Thanks for your thoughts, Fernando. I do totally understand your points but it seems that there have been such plates for messengers. Please see these pieces from the MET:

https://www.metmuseum.org/search-results#!/search?q=messenger%20badge

As far as I understand, those have been worn on clothes.

I will check if I can find traces from rivets / nails on mine on the weekend

fernando · 24th September 2020, 05:32 PM

These MET people sure know an infinitely lot more about it than me; meaning i know nothing.
It is just that i find strange to hang a metalic shield on a thin fabric livery. Could they wear some thicker material ... even made of leather ?

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AHorsa · 24th September 2020, 08:15 PM

When I think of thin woven fabrics I am totally with you - a metal shield won´t last long there. But me I know nothing too

And I have no idea what the clothes was like in that time.

fernando · 25th September 2020, 12:23 PM

For as thick as woven fabric may be, it doesn't stay steady (uninclined) with a 35 grams metal plaque. Maybe the (MET) expression that the badges were "worn on their clothing" is a simplistic way put it. We know that messengers wore tunics, but also capes (cloaks), obviously heavier. Also belt bags, as per second painting in #21); these would (could) be made in a harder material (leather), more consistent with a badge application.
And just for perusal, i have read that, in some cases, lances (spears) also made part of their symbolic attire.

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AHorsa · 26th September 2020, 09:44 AM

Hi Fernando,

thanks for your remarks and the images! I think it will be hard to say if it belonged to a messenger and if so, where it was worn (except that it wasn´t worn on "light" clothing) unless we find a certainly defined / identified comparandum.

One observation I want to add for the piece´s history:
Looking at the six holes, it seems that three of them has a bulge (not sure if this is the right phrase) from beeing drilled less professional than those three on the edges which also has those outbursts. This makes me assume that the piece was once took off forcefully, than three new wholes where drilled and it was attached again.

24th September 2020, 05:32 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	These MET people sure know an infinitely lot more about it than me; meaning i know nothing. It is just that i find strange to hang a metalic shield on a thin fabric livery. Could they wear some thicker material ... even made of leather ? . Attached Images

25th September 2020, 12:23 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	For as thick as woven fabric may be, it doesn't stay steady (uninclined) with a 35 grams metal plaque. Maybe the (MET) expression that the badges were "worn on their clothing" is a simplistic way put it. We know that messengers wore tunics, but also capes (cloaks), obviously heavier. Also belt bags, as per second painting in #21); these would (could) be made in a harder material (leather), more consistent with a badge application. And just for perusal, i have read that, in some cases, lances (spears) also made part of their symbolic attire. . Attached Images

26th September 2020, 09:44 AM	#7
AHorsa Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Rhineland Posts: 375	Hi Fernando, thanks for your remarks and the images! I think it will be hard to say if it belonged to a messenger and if so, where it was worn (except that it wasn´t worn on "light" clothing) unless we find a certainly defined / identified comparandum. One observation I want to add for the piece´s history: Looking at the six holes, it seems that three of them has a bulge (not sure if this is the right phrase) from beeing drilled less professional than those three on the edges which also has those outbursts. This makes me assume that the piece was once took off forcefully, than three new wholes where drilled and it was attached again. Attached Images Last edited by AHorsa; 26th September 2020 at 09:57 AM.

24th September 2020, 07:14 AM	#1
AHorsa Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Rhineland Posts: 375	Would be possible I think but hard to proof. Actually, I don't think it was fixed with rivets somewhere. There is no space for the rivet heads so that they would cause damage to the rim. From the example shown by Fernando and other similar pieces, it seems that appliques have been fixed to leather by rivets. That makes me assume that it was fixed (likely on a textile round) using a thread or so

24th September 2020, 10:53 AM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Excelent find Andreas, that picture of a messenger . I had (if i should) doubts about what kind of attire they wore, whether hard (armour) or soft clothes. In this case as shown, your badge would not be in the adequate material, but instead a textile one. On the other hand, i would not agree that your example was fixed to wherever place by tying it with thread; besides being too soft to hold metal edges, the hole in the lower (V) corner would not be in the convenient position for thread binding. I would bet on it to be riveted (nailed) to a hard material; leather, wood (a chest), metal ... whatever.

24th September 2020, 12:44 PM	#3
AHorsa Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Rhineland Posts: 375	Thanks for your thoughts, Fernando. I do totally understand your points but it seems that there have been such plates for messengers. Please see these pieces from the MET: https://www.metmuseum.org/search-results#!/search?q=messenger%20badge As far as I understand, those have been worn on clothes. I will check if I can find traces from rivets / nails on mine on the weekend

24th September 2020, 08:15 PM	#5
AHorsa Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Rhineland Posts: 375	When I think of thin woven fabrics I am totally with you - a metal shield won´t last long there. But me I know nothing too And I have no idea what the clothes was like in that time.