British dragoon sword

Jim McDougall · 16th September 2020, 04:26 PM

Hi Bryce,
Thank you so very much for these excellent examples, photos and material. It seems there is ample evidence that these recurved quillon examples were indeed used by the15th LD, and we know from 1763. While we do not know if these date from the 1759 raising of the regiment, it may be presumed so.

I had not been aware of the name Eliott's Horse for the 15th, but found that Gen. George Augustus Eliott was 1st Baron Heathfield, and did raise the 15th as one of the first of the 'new' light dragoon units. The 16th, 17th, 18th and 19th followed it seems in the same year.
Eliott seems to have been quite innovative and keyed to the arms of the unit, so it does not seem surprising that these apparently uniquely styled hilts were commissioned. He appears to have modified a pistol in use which became known as a pattern 1759.

The Light Dragoons were decided upon as result of testing the concept in 1756. It seems the swords used in this test were of the brass 'heart' shaped guard (as on the '1751' infantry hangers) but with longer blade.

In the article by Philip Lankester (Royal Armouries, op. cit.2004) he notes the sword which is virtually the same as my example (OP) in fig. 9, p.53.
It is noted that Jeffries supplied 3500 broad swords with iron basket hilts to the Board of Ordnance and discusses his characteristic markings IEF/RIS under GR and crown.
It is noted that this same mark was used on cavalry swords for 'other ranks' .
Here it says that 140 of a single 'pattern' are displayed at 'Guardroom' at Belvoir Castle, Leicesatershire and that the Royal Armouries has a single example of the same 'pattern'(ix2130) puchased in 1981.

"...the blade is 36.5" long and almost straight and the iron hilts have a knuckle-guard which widens slightly to form a slotted guard in front of the hand".

Further, '..it is not known which regiment or regiments used this 'pattern'."

The implication here is that this mysterious 'pattern' appears to have been made by Jeffries in 1759? or thereabouts. We know the example shown is by Jeffries, the mark is shown (fig. 8).
As previously mentioned my example is deeply pitted so marks cannot be seen. Interestingly, the example in the Royal Armouries is specifically noted as not 'cleaned or conserved' as purchased (1981).
As I purchased my example in 1977, it would seem coincidental that these 'rough' examples were circulating in this period at least in small quantity.

So we have no proof of this being a 15th LD sword (it is simply termed cavalry sword 1760-70 in the literature), but speculation based on the blade style with clipped point from the D guard example of c. 1780 .

It would seem that it is certain this curious 'pattern' was indeed a cavalry sword of 1760-70 (in 1770s branches were added to these guards).
We know Jeffries made them (as per examples with marked blades), but that he indeed made the recurved blade examples for the 15th as discussed.

Here is where the comparisons become muddled. It would seem the olive pommel and slotted guard were features that became popular more toward 1770. It seems that these clipped point blades also were notable in these swords for light dragoons in this later period.

Given those facts, it seems probable at this point that my sword may be later than the 1759 date I had hoped for because of these features, but does seem to correspond to the single 'pattern' mentioned in the Lankester article and certainly 1760-70 period as noted for 'cavalry'.

Whatever the case, it seems a relatively rare pattern (though not regulation of course) as it does not appear in the most comprehensive reference (Neumann, 1973) and is noted to be represented in Belvoir castle by the 140 examples (as of 2004) and single example Royal Armouries.

Bryce · 17th September 2020, 04:10 AM

G'day Jim,
I came across a photo of the swords displayed at Belvoir Castle. Given that it is the ancestral home of the Dukes of Rutland and that this family raised the 21st Light Dragoons in 1760, it is likely that these swords were for that regiment. The 21st LD's were disbanded in 1763 and this may explain why there are so many still present in the castle. These swords all have straight blades that taper down to an asymmetrical point, unlike your own clipped point example.
Cheers,
Bryce

PS I just noticed the difference in pommel and guard attachment between these swords and your own. As you said this may mean yours is later than 1760.

Jim McDougall · 17th September 2020, 04:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryce

G'day Jim,
I came across a photo of the swords displayed at Belvoir Castle. Given that it is the ancestral home of the Dukes of Rutland and that this family raised the 21st Light Dragoons in 1760, it is likely that these swords were for that regiment. The 21st LD's were disbanded in 1763 and this may explain why there are so many still present in the castle. These swords all have straight blades that taper down to an asymmetrical point, unlike your own clipped point example.
Cheers,
Bryce

PS I just noticed the difference in pommel and guard attachment between these swords and your own. As you said this may mean yours is later than 1760.

Wow Bryce, I had not noticed this..........mine has the ring around base of pommel......kinda looks Scottish? Is that not like placed on basket hilts?
The others all seem to go into aperture in pommel.
What pushes me toward post 1760 is the pommel shape, and the slotted guard with this clipped point blade. That pommel ring just threw me a curve.

Bryce · 17th September 2020, 07:53 AM

G'day Jim,
Look at this:
https://americansocietyofarmscollect...h-Behind-t.pdf

Bryce · 17th September 2020, 08:32 AM

Here is another like yours I found on the web.
Cheers,
Bryce

Will M · 17th September 2020, 03:39 PM

Hello Bryce I take it you are saying "pommel and guard attachment" can date these swords and post 1760 would have the guard with a ring just forward of the pommel?

Jim McDougall · 17th September 2020, 08:40 PM

Bryce thank you!!! I had heard of Potters's but had no idea. I think I have been obsessed with the clipped point.
In this incredible article (again I cannot thank you enough), it is noted that the 'Potter' was based on the British 'pattern' 1756 ?
Could this have been a 'light dragoon' design with the ring around pommel base often seen on basket hilts?

Could this be a 'Potter'....but I found it in London ?
The article shows a trooper with a 'captured' one.

Jim McDougall · 17th September 2020, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryce

Here is another like yours I found on the web.
Cheers,
Bryce

This looks almost identical! Is it identified?

Bryce · 18th September 2020, 12:55 AM

G'day Will,
I don't know. I am just speculating that these swords with the ring attachment may be later, as this type of sword seems to have been in use during the American war of independence.

Jim,
The similar sword is for sale somewhere in the US. It is described as a revolutionary war dragoon sword. That article suggests that the "Potter" swords were based on British swords and also that some of the British forces were using "Potter" swords as well, so it wouldn't be surprising that you found your sword in London. Can you have a look at your sword to see if it has a Potter stamp?
Cheers,
Bryce

16th September 2020, 04:26 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	Hi Bryce, Thank you so very much for these excellent examples, photos and material. It seems there is ample evidence that these recurved quillon examples were indeed used by the15th LD, and we know from 1763. While we do not know if these date from the 1759 raising of the regiment, it may be presumed so. I had not been aware of the name Eliott's Horse for the 15th, but found that Gen. George Augustus Eliott was 1st Baron Heathfield, and did raise the 15th as one of the first of the 'new' light dragoon units. The 16th, 17th, 18th and 19th followed it seems in the same year. Eliott seems to have been quite innovative and keyed to the arms of the unit, so it does not seem surprising that these apparently uniquely styled hilts were commissioned. He appears to have modified a pistol in use which became known as a pattern 1759. The Light Dragoons were decided upon as result of testing the concept in 1756. It seems the swords used in this test were of the brass 'heart' shaped guard (as on the '1751' infantry hangers) but with longer blade. In the article by Philip Lankester (Royal Armouries, op. cit.2004) he notes the sword which is virtually the same as my example (OP) in fig. 9, p.53. It is noted that Jeffries supplied 3500 broad swords with iron basket hilts to the Board of Ordnance and discusses his characteristic markings IEF/RIS under GR and crown. It is noted that this same mark was used on cavalry swords for 'other ranks' . Here it says that 140 of a single 'pattern' are displayed at 'Guardroom' at Belvoir Castle, Leicesatershire and that the Royal Armouries has a single example of the same 'pattern'(ix2130) puchased in 1981. "...the blade is 36.5" long and almost straight and the iron hilts have a knuckle-guard which widens slightly to form a slotted guard in front of the hand". Further, '..it is not known which regiment or regiments used this 'pattern'." The implication here is that this mysterious 'pattern' appears to have been made by Jeffries in 1759? or thereabouts. We know the example shown is by Jeffries, the mark is shown (fig. 8). As previously mentioned my example is deeply pitted so marks cannot be seen. Interestingly, the example in the Royal Armouries is specifically noted as not 'cleaned or conserved' as purchased (1981). As I purchased my example in 1977, it would seem coincidental that these 'rough' examples were circulating in this period at least in small quantity. So we have no proof of this being a 15th LD sword (it is simply termed cavalry sword 1760-70 in the literature), but speculation based on the blade style with clipped point from the D guard example of c. 1780 . It would seem that it is certain this curious 'pattern' was indeed a cavalry sword of 1760-70 (in 1770s branches were added to these guards). We know Jeffries made them (as per examples with marked blades), but that he indeed made the recurved blade examples for the 15th as discussed. Here is where the comparisons become muddled. It would seem the olive pommel and slotted guard were features that became popular more toward 1770. It seems that these clipped point blades also were notable in these swords for light dragoons in this later period. Given those facts, it seems probable at this point that my sword may be later than the 1759 date I had hoped for because of these features, but does seem to correspond to the single 'pattern' mentioned in the Lankester article and certainly 1760-70 period as noted for 'cavalry'. Whatever the case, it seems a relatively rare pattern (though not regulation of course) as it does not appear in the most comprehensive reference (Neumann, 1973) and is noted to be represented in Belvoir castle by the 140 examples (as of 2004) and single example Royal Armouries. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 16th September 2020 at 06:44 PM.

17th September 2020, 04:10 AM	#2
Bryce Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: North Queensland, Australia Posts: 195	G'day Jim, I came across a photo of the swords displayed at Belvoir Castle. Given that it is the ancestral home of the Dukes of Rutland and that this family raised the 21st Light Dragoons in 1760, it is likely that these swords were for that regiment. The 21st LD's were disbanded in 1763 and this may explain why there are so many still present in the castle. These swords all have straight blades that taper down to an asymmetrical point, unlike your own clipped point example. Cheers, Bryce PS I just noticed the difference in pommel and guard attachment between these swords and your own. As you said this may mean yours is later than 1760. Attached Images Last edited by Bryce; 17th September 2020 at 04:24 AM.

17th September 2020, 08:32 AM	#5
Bryce Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: North Queensland, Australia Posts: 195	Here is another like yours I found on the web. Cheers, Bryce Attached Images

17th September 2020, 07:53 AM	#4
Bryce Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: North Queensland, Australia Posts: 195	G'day Jim, Look at this: https://americansocietyofarmscollect...h-Behind-t.pdf

17th September 2020, 03:39 PM	#6
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 406	Hello Bryce I take it you are saying "pommel and guard attachment" can date these swords and post 1760 would have the guard with a ring just forward of the pommel?

17th September 2020, 08:40 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	Bryce thank you!!! I had heard of Potters's but had no idea. I think I have been obsessed with the clipped point. In this incredible article (again I cannot thank you enough), it is noted that the 'Potter' was based on the British 'pattern' 1756 ? Could this have been a 'light dragoon' design with the ring around pommel base often seen on basket hilts? Could this be a 'Potter'....but I found it in London ? The article shows a trooper with a 'captured' one.

18th September 2020, 12:55 AM	#9
Bryce Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: North Queensland, Australia Posts: 195	G'day Will, I don't know. I am just speculating that these swords with the ring attachment may be later, as this type of sword seems to have been in use during the American war of independence. Jim, The similar sword is for sale somewhere in the US. It is described as a revolutionary war dragoon sword. That article suggests that the "Potter" swords were based on British swords and also that some of the British forces were using "Potter" swords as well, so it wouldn't be surprising that you found your sword in London. Can you have a look at your sword to see if it has a Potter stamp? Cheers, Bryce