Sudanese spearheads with handles & arrow heads???

[katana]

Received these today, I am assuming that these are Sudanese.
Three socketted spearheads fixed to handles. Two handles leather covered,the third,possibly Monitor lizard. Does this type of weapon have a name? Obviously it was used as a stabbing blade, where these improvised for 'close quarter' fighting?
Also with these pieces I have two arrow heads ? made in the same style with a socket fitting, surely too small for spears? Any suggestions gratefully received......

[fearn]

Hi Katana,

Interesting items! To figure out whether those points are arrow heads or dart/javelin heads, it would be useful to know a) their lengths, and b) the inside diameter of the sockets.

Just as a note, I've been reading some interesting books from the archeological recreaters--the guys who are into making stone weapons. They've learned quite a lot about throwing darts, javelins, spears, etc. with spear throwers, batons de commandment, cords, and what have you. I can expand on this in another thread if desired, but the basic point is that throwing spears, especially those thrown with a spear thrower, are better thought of as double-length arrows rather than as lances. Often, spears designed primarily as missiles can have diameters <1 in (1-3 cm).

The basic point is that there's a size overlap between arrows and thrown spears, to the extent that some American archeologists have stopped talking about "large arrowheads" and "small spearheads" and started talking about "dart points," basically because the smallest, slenderest throwing spears are the same size as the largest, heaviest arrows, and only the details of the shaft can be used to distinguish them (presence/absence of features such as feathers, nocks, etc).

My 0.02 cents,

F

[Tim Simmons]

I am not sure these items with the handles are actual weapons. Take another look at the thread started by Katius and the spear thread from Fernando. These in my opinion are all linked to Southern Sudan and North East Congo. No doubt they could be used as weapons. I feel they are more dance or society objects. I like them, lots.

[katana]

Hi Fearn,
you're right I should have included dimensions. Your comments are very informative. The dimensions of the 'arrow' heads are;

socket dia. 1. 11mm 2. 13mm
length 1. 15mm 2. 16mm
blade width 1. 19mm 2. 23mm
(widest)

The measurements suggest a shaft of arrow proportions. They (the heads) are very light, and probably would not give the weight needed to give a small spear the correct trajectory, when thrown. (Unless the shaft was weighted at the spearhead end.) I'm begining to lean towards these being arrow heads. However, the idea of a spear thrower would make sense, this would provide enough energy (as would a bow) to propel a 'light headed' projectile accurately. Spear throwers were common in the America's, Australia etc and are very ancient. Is there any evidence of their useage in Africa?

Tim, I think your thoughts about the spears are probably correct. Have you had the chance to read my other thread about a Sudanese dagger set? You know I always value your comments and the Sudan is one of your forte's

[fearn]

Hi Katana,

Thanks for the measurements. I think you're probably right about the small points being arrowheads. To my (admittedly imperfect) knowledge, there aren't any atlatl/spearthrowers from Africa.

F

[katana]

I find it strange that atlatl / spear throwers were not commonly used in Africa, they were found in many cultures and time periods. In fact according to archaeological evidence, the atlatl first made its appearance between 25 000 and 40 000 years ago in the region that today encompasses Algeria, Morocco and Tunisia.
It allowed a 6 foot spear (or more accurately a dart) to be propelled at 80 mph with great accuracy ( to around 40m )and reach distances of 200m. The world record for the javelin is under 100m.
An effective, simple weapon, in Africa's long past that lost favour? It really is a puzzle.
The mental picture of hoards of Zulu using these weapons against the British, suggests that perhaps they would have gained more victories than they actually did.

[fearn]

Hi Katana,

You're right about the puzzle, I think. Actually, the current atlatl record is closer to 800 m (check Wikipedia), and thrown spears can hit harder than arrows do. In many ways, atlatls and bows are equivalent. One of my favorite anecdotes comes from the Spanish conquest of Mexico, home of the name atlatl. The Aztec soldiers used atlatls to send obsidian-tipped spears through the steel breastplates that the Spaniards were wearing. Personally, I think that if the Indians had had any immunity to smallpox, the conquest wouldn't have happened. But I digress.

Anyway, the question is: why use a bow? Three reasons, at least for bow hunting: it's more accurate (you can sight down the shaft), less obvious (you don't have the big throwing motion with an arrow, just a pull and release), and it takes less room (because of the throw. A bow is easier to use in a forest and especially in brush). For warfare, I'd venture to guess that you can't use an atlatl on horseback, but someone might prove me wrong on that. Arrows definitely have a faster firing rate, too.

Getting back to the question of why there are no spear throwers in Africa, at least in the last few thousand years, I'll admit I'm not sure. Since in general bows replaced atlatls in most of the world, I suspect that it's partly practical and partly social. Still, I was surprised in reading that atlatl performance was as close to bow-and-arrow, especially in range. These are definitely underappreciated weapons.

F

[katana]

Hi Fearn,

You’ve pre-empted my next question, about the bow and arrow. The development of the bow and arrow in Africa seems 'stunted'. The development of a stick 'that's 4/5ths broken' in prehistoric times to the accurate and powerful bows of the medieval period (and beyond) made sense.
Obviously, for hunting, this silent weapon has its place. For early warfare they were the artillery and an essential first attack strategy. English longbow archers were said to be able to 'loose' 6-8 arrows a minute, as the French found out, to their cost at Agincourt. The 'rain of death' would kill, wound and panic an advancing army.
In Africa, the Ancient Egyptians, Carthaginians etc. employed quality bows in their arsenals. But, strangely, at a tribal level the bow and arrow is not that common and their design still relatively basic. Again this doesn't make sense.
My question is this, in Tribal warfare, long range projectiles such as atlatl thrown darts and arrows would be an advantage, especially if your opponents had none.
So I wondered if many of the tribes REFUSED to employ these devices because they felt they were 'cowardly' and that 'close quarter combat' is more honourable. Or was it just literally, the advantage of such weapons was 'overlooked’.

I agree, the Aztec’s would have surely repelled their invaders had they not suffered defeat due to unintentional ‘biological warfare’.

Thanks for the distance of thrown darts…….800m is amazing. I’ve made a few ‘home made’ ones, easy to make and a bit of fun,… better, if you’ve a dog that will retrieve the thrown darts

[fernando]

A nonsense aproach.
One of the methods of cattle slaughter, already banned, was by means of a metal point ( choupa in portuguese ), shaped like a spear with a handle, for pricking the animal rachidian bulb.
Could these handle spears be the African equivalent, for either ritual or functional slaughter ?

[Lew]

Hi Guys

Here is a link to another thread with a similar spear from my collection. I think its a weapon or scepter of sorts.


http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=spear


Lew

[katana]

Thanks Fernando, thats an interesting angle. The Masai and a number of tribes 'bleed' their animals and drink the blood (as a food substance). Ritualistic slaughtering of animals is far from uncommon either.

Hi Lou,
the spear/sceptre in your thread is fantastic ( do ya a straight swop ), thanks for the link.

[fearn]

Hi Katana,

I'll let the others argue about the short spears. Personally, in a world that holds the Okinawan timbe and the Zulu iklwa, I wouldn't be surprised if these short spears were weapons, used with a shield at close quarters.

Back to the bow question in Africa. Actually, Africa isn't deficient in bows, but its archery technology is vastly underappreciated by the english-speaking world. There's a trilogy of books called The Traditional Bowyer's Bible, and I believe some African bow technology is covered in volume 2 or 3 (all are excellent). Some African bows were pretty impressive. An anecdote suffices: an englishman was on safari in the early 20th century, and brought his fancy english sport bow along to play with. This was a bow optimized for flight distance. One of his African guides had a bow and arrows he'd made himself for hunting. The two had a friendly distance match, and (as I recall) came out tied--they both shot the same distance. I'd say basically, there's a lot we don't know about the real archers in Africa.

Getting back to the original topic of this thread, two things that we all need to remember about spears and arrows: 1) to achieve a good performance, the weapon system (including the user) has to work together well, and when there is a projectile and its thrower (bow or atlatl), these both have to work together. Basically, the bow's got to fit the user, and the arrows have to fit both the bow that's launching them and the target they're penetrating. It's very different from going to a store and buying a bow off a shelf and arrows out of a bin (which is what we tend to think of--weapons being interchangeable). 2) Because of the tuning and optimization that go on, the shaft of the dart is probably more valuable than the tip, especially when the tip is stone. Some Indian tribes used a detachable foreshaft precisely so that if the tip smashed against a rock, the whole arrow could be rebuilt as new, rather than being shortened in repairs. Because of this, it's not surprising to see more points on the collector's market than whole arrows and spears. We'd actually learn a lot more if we could see whole arrows and spears, but I suspect we're not going to get that lucky very often.

F