Watering on a tulwar blade

[Jim McDougall]

Brian and Jens, thank you for the kind notes!

Jeff, extremely nice blade features on the kilic you show. You are right, these Ottoman kilic typically have very profound fluorishes and accented features in the blade, which as previously noted often focus on the prominant yelman.
These examples typically date from 18th century onward, and it seems these more flamboyant decorative elements in the blade and weapon overall are characteristic of many ,if not most Central Asian edged weapons.

The Venetian, and actually also Brescian falchions/storta that I was considering are mostly of the 16th century, and Tom brings in a very valid point. Could these elaborately flourished blades have been inspired by Central Asian designs and styles that were found within the Ottoman sphere and certainly seen in the constant warfare between these cultural spheres? It would seem quite probably.

This brings this conundrum to an interesting position, was this particular flourish or flamboyant blade design the result of indirect and diffused influence from Central Asian forms via the weapons of Italian armourers and direct trade contact, or from weapons of Central Asia directly via the Mughal courts? Brian's suggestion that this may be a revival type form, especially created for wealthy and important individuals for presentation is also keenly placed.

As always, all points must be considered as further discussion continues.

Best regards,
Jim

[Jeff D]

Thanks Jim,

As always, more questions then answers. Where does the false edge or yelman arise, is it Tatar, Mongol, or other? I think this will be my next quest, and a separate thread.

Jeff

[Jens Nordlunde]

I think you should be able to see the koftgari scratches here.

[Battara]

That is some thick koftgari indeed! As for that much area not covered by koftgari, I don't know, except that perhaps it was prepared by someone else and not as much room was needed afterall.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Battara,

Yes, I have been wondering ever since I got it, why such a big area was needed, and I still can't figure it out. You might be right, that some other decoration was planned but not made - who knows?

Jens

[Jim McDougall]

Hello Jeff,
Very interesting photo you have posted, which is the distinctly recognizable 'armor piercing' point on late 17th-mid 18th c. Tatar sabres. These sabres obviously are quite contrary to the blades with widened false edge points or 'yelmans' that we are considering, and suggest a very different perspective in swordsmanship. The term 'Tatar' has often been used generally with reference to nomadic steppes tribes and thus trying to more clearly define the specific use of these unusual sabres would be difficult.
These swords are discussed in "Polish Sabres: Their Origins and Evolution" by Jan Ostrowski & Wojciech Bochnak, from "Art, Arms & Armour" ed. Robert Held, Vol. I, 1979.

While the development of the curved sword/sabre has brought considerable debate and speculation, one of the key components of many of these forms has been the yelman, and is equally controversial.
It seems generally held that this blade feature developed concurrently with curved sabre blade forms with gentle radius to point, and on the widened form, a reverse edge on straight swords which evolved into double biconcave curves that gradually displayed a visible angle. This seems to have evolved into a widened point with subtle progression to curve in the blade. This feature is believed to have evolved from the east, quite possibly Chinese frontier regions such as Turkestan,and found its way to Persian regions. The Mongol curved blades had already existed in the subcontinent by the 14th c. and the Timurid rulers of Khorasan held profound influence in India, of course leading to the developing modified blades.

It seems that the sharpened reverse edge in widened form added weight and momentum to the dynamics of the favored slashing drawcut.

This material is discussed by Dr. Syed Zafar Haider in "Islamic Arms and Armour of Muslim India", Lahore, pp.169-171.

I think the idea of discussing the yelman as a developed feature on certain sabre blades is a great idea, and would be an excellent independant thread.

Very best regards,
Jim

[tom hyle]

You go, Jeff. I'm not sure what that detail you show is from. Is there a bigger shot at the end of page 1 or something? Yes, I'm checking page two first The "heavy" narrow reinforced point might be viewed as transposed from daggers or spears, and not neccessarily cross-cultural influence. Some discussion of terms may be helpful. An actual false edge is a rear edge meant to cut. It is a medieval European term, often applied to the use of double-edged broadswords;the front edge is "true" the back edge is "false" This can be dictated by the design of the sword, or by how it is held at the moment; either use is valid. A point where the spine suddenly comes down at an angle or concavity (as viewed from the side) is a clip or clipped point. If the back edge is bevelled wider than a peaked spine, but not for cutting (either a relatively obtuse angle or a rebated edge), this is spoken of as a swedged/bevelled spine (the term "swedge" is often incorrectly applied to a clip; this confusion seems to arise because clips are often swedged.). AFAIK yelman per see refers only to those that are "dropped edges"; ie that widen suddenly at the beginning of the part-length false edge. There are unsharpened widenings, as on Mexican cuchilla del (monte? costa? I forget) and some pseudo-yelmans that won't cut and can't be sharpened, and we could use a name for them, but I don't know that we have one. There are also, common on tulwar and other sabres, part-length false edges that are not "dropped" like a true yelman, nor clipped. BTW, in handling yelman swords it is my observation that they tend to be light-tipped, and it is not so much wieght or mass the yelman adds, but width to absorb vibration, instead of mass and thickness, as with daito. Also, of course, that back-hand cut is a killer.

[tom hyle]

Have you considered that this is a non-original koftgari applie where a larger one had gone missing? In any event, the larger hatched area doesn't seem that unusual to me though. Perhaps the man who did the hatching and the man who did the gold laying were traditionally different men? Speculation.....

[Jens Nordlunde]

There are no traces of a bigger decoration on either side of the blade, so I doubt that can be the reason.
In one of my books, I have unfortunately forgotten which, but it could be in the one by Francois Bernier, Travels in the Mogul Empire A.D. 1656-1668, the author writes, that customers can look in books with many different designs before they order a hilt. This could indicate that it was the goldsmith who made the hatching for koftgari, but it does not mean that he did, maybe he had the hatching made at the blade smith’ after his instructions – I will have to go on reading.

[tom hyle]

It seems like I've heard or read that the gold-layer does the hatching, but I'm unsure, so thought I'd point out the possibility. I wonder if they had some kind of ink they used to lay out the writing/design on the hatched area, or if they did it free-hand, too.

[Jim McDougall]

Excellent description of the characteristics and proper terminology on these blades by Mr. Hyle !! Really puts things into perspective.
I agree that it would be interesting to know more on the entire sword posted by Jeff, although it appears to be as I suggested a Tatar sabre ("Bron w Dawnej Polsce", Prof. Zdzislaw Zygulski, 1975, Warsaw, #145).

Many years ago discussing the yelman with a Polish gentleman, who was a fencing master, and not surprisingly fascinated with the development of the sabre... he noted that this feature was often described by a colloquial Polish term which meant 'feather', alluding rather tongue in cheek to the extra weight applied to the end of the blade. I had heard a number of other references to the purpose of the yelman in discussions usually noting the added weight concept. Obviously there seems to be ,as always conflicting views on the practical application of certain blade features, and the alternate explanation referring to blade vibration seems quite plausible as well.

Incidentally, just noticed a remarkable resemblance in the blade on Jens' sword to the large Chinese 'oxtail' blades found on late 18th c. ring pommel hilt sabres. The blades with biconcave peak on back of blade have the same early falchion form. Perhaps these 'oxtail' blade forms are survivors of the early blade forms previously mentioned from the sabre blades that evolved in China's frontiers to the west?



Best regards,
Jim

[Jeff D]

Hi Guys,

So sorry for the tardy response, work has been very busy lately. As Jim noted this is a tatar saber from Gutowski's book, I posted it as I could not see how it could explain the origin of the yelmen to the tatars. As always Jim cleared this up with his explanation of Tatar being a generalized term for the steppe tribes. Thanks Tom for the definitions, Can I ask where they are obtained? I didn't realize how hard it is to find a clear definition of a yelman. I was under the mistaken impression that it was any false edge on a saber, your definition makes more sense.
As soon as time permits I think I will start a new thread on this topic so as not to dilute this excellent thread.

Thanks all.
Jeff

[tom hyle]

Unfortuneately my mind is such as to rarely provide documentary or referential sources; a constant difficulty for those who recieve communication from me....
There is recurrent confusion around the term Tartar; for many centuries it is commonly used to refer to the primarily Turkic peoples of the Eurasian stepper, commonly including, but not limitted to Kazaks, Turks, Huigars, Mongols, etc. Also for centuries, it has been used to refer to specific tribes, often somewhat localized of course.
There seem to be 3 possible explanations that come to mind:
1/Some Tartars live nearby. You are not a Tartar. They are Tartars, and that's enough for you; your people don't know their tribal name; you don't know any other Tartars; you think they're "Tartars."
2/There are tribes that seem to have no other name but "Crimean Tartars" or "Blue Tartars" (though how much this is a foriegn inaccuracy is unclear). Such tribes may become in shorthand "Tartars" to someone who is unaware of the broader implications of the term. Essentially similar to #1
3/It was originally the name of one tribe, and got more generally applied, as with Roman, Zulu, Mongol....the problem I see with this is this usually occurs through conspicuous conquest, and we know other names for conspicuously conquering/ruling Tartar tribes, like Mongol and Turk?.....
All this confusion is not helped by the fact that these people, their culture, and their vast historical influence, are largely ignored in the "West", and after the irritating way of "Science" which seeks boundaries more often than centers (by it's defining nature), who get attached to the other cultural areas they border, rather than being seen as their own; so Huigars and Manchus are viewed as Chinese, Cossaks and Magyars as Slavs/Europeans, Turks as psuedo-Arabic, etc. Of course there's blending along cultural borders, but this case seems to be only looked at in that one way; as a vast frontier between cultural realms, rather than a valid and important realm in its own right, and I think that this is, well, bogus.
So Tartar Tartar Tartar, say I; let's all eat a bagel and some yogurt

[CharlesS]

In January I was able to find a sword almost identical to Jens'(Thanks Runjeet!) except for the hilt motifs, and Jens' is in better condition overall. The sword is rather small(which I like!) but beautifully balanced and its unique yelman and superior wootz really make it stand out. The polish was done by Philip Tom, as was the new scabbard's wooden core. The fittings were done by Thomaz Kaczor in Canada.

It all came together to create a stunning piece.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Ok this is an old thread, but I have a question.
Charles, the tulwar you show in post 49, did you ever get the text translated?

I now have a translation, made by a kind member of the forum, but before I show it, I would like to know if you have the text translated.

[Runjeet Singh]

Dear Jens,

I do apologise I have been away exhibiting and only just returned. I dont think I did have the inscription translated when I sold the sword to Charles, so I would be interested to hear what it says.

Thanks for your interest in this, as well as being very pretty, the sword had a great feel to it, I'm sure yours does too.

Kind Regards,
Runjeet

[Jens Nordlunde]

The one who translated the text told me that it says "Rup Abdullah Sahib (owner) sanah 1150".
He did, however, add, that there seem to be ssomething strange about the number/year.