A cup hilt sword ... atypical, for your comments.

[kronckew]

The filed in 'luks' do not look as good as the forged in ones which are a lot smoother.

I see in the one photo above the 2 swords on the left appears filed, the one to it's right appear to be forged that way, like the older More Kris. The bottom one looks forged too.

On a sword, the forward part of the blade is frequently the only part sharpened and used to cut and thrust, the rear half is unsharpened to resist your opponents blows on this stronger section. In a thrust you'd only use the first few inches behind the point, more is overkill (literally) and might make it easier to get stuck if you thrust too far in. You's never make it to the luks.

Likewise, you'd hardly ever be in a position where you'd cut with the waved bit, it's too far back. No force to an impact cut and even a draw/push cut would be difficult and not very effective. They still look scary tho.

[Jim McDougall]

In accord with Wayne's observations, I was wondering pretty much the same thing about the undulating edges on these blades on these rapier arming swords of 17th c. The wavy edges are in the upper half of the blade, thus the notion of worsening thrusting wounds not really viable.

Most of what I have read, alludes to the undulating edges on blades leading to undue vibration in the blade 'slowing' the dynamics of wielding it. It would seem that would be more to the distal half of the blade, as there the metal is of course thinner. What I dont understand is why the undulation would cause vibration any more than a straight edge in the same part of the blade.

The undulating edges on the two handers for boar hunting does seem to make more sense, and the flukes were to keep the impaled animal from working up the blade, again, as has been explained elsewhere.

Burton wrote on serrated edges on blades, bayonets in particular, noting that this feature was entirely counter productive as the weapon could usually not be withdrawn and became lodged.

Aside from these 'forensic' factors, the aesthetic or allegorical value of the undulating blades as I had mentioned were well placed in the ecclesiastic allusions with sword blades. The 'Sword of Paradise' was of course well themed in the context of chivalry which carried well into the evolution, lore and dogma of fraternities, military orders, and other circumstances where swords were traditional icons.
In Masonic situations, the Tyler, who guarded the lodge and held a sword, traditionally and ideally, these swords were in the dogma, to be 'flamberge' or wavy bladed. Naturally in practice, many other types of swords were used, many votively with old combat weapons.

With the keris, I had always understood the varying profiles of the blades, representing nagan theme, were with the 'snake' or serpent straight, it was 'asleep' while undulating, obviously awake and active. I have little to zero knowledge of the complicated character of the keris, so surely those who do will respond to elucidate. What Philip has noted surely is the logic in these Indonesian and Asian blades.
In India, there were many 'nagan' blades on khanda, pattisa etc. and in Islamic blades, the dual or bifurcated 'Dhu'l Fiqar' blades are typically undulating. On these the purpose was primarily aesthetic I believe.

[fernando]

Whether one gave place to the other, let evidence show up and enlighten us ... or enlighten me, for one.
Not hard to trace the multiple info on the flaming sword; Sumerian, owned by Asaruludu; the bible, with Archangel Uriel, guarding the doors of Eden to prevent expelled Adam and Even to return (Gênesis 3:24); in Welsh mythology, the Dyrnwyn owned by Rhydderch, capable of burning the man who called him for unworthy purposes; in Nordic mythology, the sword held by Surtr, a jötunn from Muspelheim, had a flaming blade with imense destructive power. But all those swords had blades that produced "actual" flames; burning fire was their business, not the design of the blade.
Now, whether all these gave transition to 'modern' blades with the waving option, losing the property of fire in favor of their stabbing efficacy, let it be a self service conclusion.
Not forgetting that, by the time of freemasonry, the flames had already ceased playing their mythic role and the sword was only undulated (say waved). But this occurrence only appeared in a later ritual fashion in France, influenced by the exiled Scots nobles. Before that, freemasons had their own mason tools for symbols, the sword not included. Even the Tyler chronicles are not consistent with his sword being undulated or straight.
Obviously the argument that the waving section being placed other than in the blade point is, if i may, a fait divers. As i said in my first post about the sword in discussiin being an 'atypical' example, quoted as a 'owners whim' (read caprice).
Attached a couple examples from my little collection in such context.


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[Jim McDougall]

Well researched and well put Fernando. Thank you.
While I had touched on the Masonic lore from time to time, I had never seen these details in depth.
As you say, the owner who commissioned the sword's whim, and as always, atavism and tradition which were well steeped in the Spanish and Portuguese culture, would often prevail. In this manner cup hilts prevailed in use even into the 19th century in the colonies.

As I had mentioned, the Tyler's sword was expressed as being 'wavy' bladed (=flamed) in much of the literature I saw in research some years ago, but much of this was from 19th century. Thus, one would expect the often flowery and theatrical kinds of expression and allegory of the period to be part of what was written on these kinds of subjects.
In reality, as mentioned as well, the sword used by the Tyler in actual lodges was whatever weapon was deemed by the local members to be notably significant in this esteemed position.

I have found numerous instances of certain souvenir or combat 'blooded' weapons from capture or trophy being used in lodges, one I recall was an old Spanish saber with the familiar 'Spanish motto'. It was of course not 'wavy' but regarded as venerated and worthy of such place in the lodge.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... In this manner cup hilts prevailed in use even into the 19th century in the colonies.

Also over here, Jim. Those that survived until then, were the resource of the population when involved in the various (Portuguese) civil war conflicts.

[fernando]

... also this example (the one initially posted) has the same particularity of a threaded pommel. Pity i couldn't dismount the grip, to look for possible signs on the tang; too stuck to risk damaging.


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[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Also over here, Jim. Those that survived until then, were the resource of the population when involved in the various (Portuguese) civil war conflicts.

We crossed posts, that makes sense as often, especially in rural areas such instances of civil disturbance, the use of obsolete (theoretically) and older arms are used in the ersatz arming of individuals. Actually in the colonies of the 'New World', contrary to what many perceive, these were not technically 'military' movements, but private individuals hoping to better their lives. They were expected to arm themselves of course, and carried everything from long outdated armor and arms which were acquired in long ago battles and other heirlooms from various sources.
Most resources on the colonial arms make specific note of the curious array of these old weapons ( a'la Don Quixote ) which prevailed.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... that makes sense as often, especially in rural areas such instances of civil disturbance, the use of obsolete (theoretically) and older arms are used in the ersatz arming of individuals. .

In this chapter, swords tend to beat guns.
While fire weapons may become impraticable (unshootable) with time, bladed weapons are ageless, as they can always do the job.
But i am digressing .


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