A cup hilt sword ... atypical, for your comments.

Jim McDougall · 31st July 2020, 07:05 PM

This is an outstanding sword, and I agree with the 17th c. period suggested,
more toward the middle.
The undulating edge on the blade was known in the times up to the Renaissance as 'flamberge' and without going into all the etymological detail referred loosely to 'flaming' sword, and in most cases had far more to do with ecclesiastical allegory to the 'Sword of Paradise' in Biblical dogma. This sword was guardian to the entrance gates to paradise.

As noted, these blades were well known on the two handers, but seen on other swords as well.
As far as I have understood, there is far more aesthetic and imbued value in these undulating edges than practical, but along with the religious symbolism and invocations often seen on blades of the time, this feature seems well placed but indeed atypical for these kinds of 'arming' swords.

While I believe there are some examples with undulation the full length of the blade, it seems it is more usual to be in the upper half of the blade where more strength and metal stock is present. Blades of course tend to thin notably in the distal half so such features would be more difficult.

Philip · 31st July 2020, 10:31 PM

Parabens, Nando!

A truly rare blade form (half waved from the forte, straight towards tip) in a European context. Fairly common, however, among south Philippine kalis (kris) short swords, that configuration called kalis taluseko.

Jim: Re your comment on flamberge blades, I think that there is a functional component as well. When used for the thrust, the tissue damage from the puncture wound is more extensive due to the lateral waves. Greater shock and blood loss. That's why a number of central European boar swords (not spears) also have wavy blades, broad enough so the edges can be sharpened. And this is also held to be the rationale behind the wavy blades on many keris daggers of SE Asia as well.

ulfberth · 1st August 2020, 12:12 PM

That is a nice sword indeed especially the blade I to would place it as 17th C ! There is an almost identical one in the Museu Militar in Lisbon that one is described as 18th C, perhaps these are late 17th C early 18th C ? It would be interesting to find out when the first one's emerged to me this is typical Portuguese . Although I collect 16th and 17th C I would not mind having this one in my collection , perhaps Fernando will give me a call around Christmas

kind regards
Ulfberth

fernando · 1st August 2020, 06:53 PM

Thank you Filipe,
Duly noted on the further efficacy of waved blades. So true that i favor 'forensics' quicker than 'esoterics'. Also the author of AS ARMAS e OS BARÕES prefers to explain the purpose of these blades as having a multiple cutting area. In fact he shows three of such examples in his book which, together with a couple i know that exist in a fellow collector's collection, make me infer that these blades were more directed to thrusting efficiency than to please the Gods. But of course that could have taken place in a much earlier period. Interesting also to notice that more than one technique was used to shape tese flaming blades. As i once heard, the undulations may be applied by either filing the steel after the blade is made or make them while forging it.

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fernando · 1st August 2020, 07:11 PM

Thank you so much for the kind words, Dirk. And don't loose hope; Christmas is not so far away ... neither is Belgium

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Thank you also for posting that nice sword in the Museu Militar. Oh, i wish i could read the inscription on the blade. Do you have a picture with a higher resolution ?

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ulfberth · 1st August 2020, 07:26 PM

Sure Fernando, here you go

fernando · 1st August 2020, 08:12 PM

Thank you so much, Dirk,
No doubt this one is from the 18th century, consistent with the King mentioned in the caption (Dom Jão V, reigned 1706-1750). A precious detail; the grip is covered with tressed horsehair.

1st August 2020, 12:12 PM	#3
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 430	That is a nice sword indeed especially the blade I to would place it as 17th C ! There is an almost identical one in the Museu Militar in Lisbon that one is described as 18th C, perhaps these are late 17th C early 18th C ? It would be interesting to find out when the first one's emerged to me this is typical Portuguese . Although I collect 16th and 17th C I would not mind having this one in my collection , perhaps Fernando will give me a call around Christmas kind regards Ulfberth Attached Images

1st August 2020, 06:53 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you Filipe, Duly noted on the further efficacy of waved blades. So true that i favor 'forensics' quicker than 'esoterics'. Also the author of AS ARMAS e OS BARÕES prefers to explain the purpose of these blades as having a multiple cutting area. In fact he shows three of such examples in his book which, together with a couple i know that exist in a fellow collector's collection, make me infer that these blades were more directed to thrusting efficiency than to please the Gods. But of course that could have taken place in a much earlier period. Interesting also to notice that more than one technique was used to shape tese flaming blades. As i once heard, the undulations may be applied by either filing the steel after the blade is made or make them while forging it. . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 1st August 2020 at 08:24 PM.

1st August 2020, 07:11 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	correction Thank you so much for the kind words, Dirk. And don't loose hope; Christmas is not so far away ... neither is Belgium . Thank you also for posting that nice sword in the Museu Militar. Oh, i wish i could read the inscription on the blade. Do you have a picture with a higher resolution ? . Last edited by fernando; 1st August 2020 at 08:25 PM.

1st August 2020, 07:26 PM	#6
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 430	Sure Fernando, here you go Attached Images

31st July 2020, 07:05 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	This is an outstanding sword, and I agree with the 17th c. period suggested, more toward the middle. The undulating edge on the blade was known in the times up to the Renaissance as 'flamberge' and without going into all the etymological detail referred loosely to 'flaming' sword, and in most cases had far more to do with ecclesiastical allegory to the 'Sword of Paradise' in Biblical dogma. This sword was guardian to the entrance gates to paradise. As noted, these blades were well known on the two handers, but seen on other swords as well. As far as I have understood, there is far more aesthetic and imbued value in these undulating edges than practical, but along with the religious symbolism and invocations often seen on blades of the time, this feature seems well placed but indeed atypical for these kinds of 'arming' swords. While I believe there are some examples with undulation the full length of the blade, it seems it is more usual to be in the upper half of the blade where more strength and metal stock is present. Blades of course tend to thin notably in the distal half so such features would be more difficult.

31st July 2020, 10:31 PM	#2
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	Parabens, Nando! A truly rare blade form (half waved from the forte, straight towards tip) in a European context. Fairly common, however, among south Philippine kalis (kris) short swords, that configuration called kalis taluseko. Jim: Re your comment on flamberge blades, I think that there is a functional component as well. When used for the thrust, the tissue damage from the puncture wound is more extensive due to the lateral waves. Greater shock and blood loss. That's why a number of central European boar swords (not spears) also have wavy blades, broad enough so the edges can be sharpened. And this is also held to be the rationale behind the wavy blades on many keris daggers of SE Asia as well.

1st August 2020, 08:12 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you so much, Dirk, No doubt this one is from the 18th century, consistent with the King mentioned in the caption (Dom Jão V, reigned 1706-1750). A precious detail; the grip is covered with tressed horsehair.