Fish Skin Grips on British Swords?

Ian · 19th July 2020, 04:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryce

G'day Guys,

Does any one know when the term "shagreen" started being used in association with ray and shark skin grips? In the Carlton House Catalogue which describes many swords in the possession of King George IV in the period of 1790's thru to the 1820's, these types of grips are described as "fish skin".
Cheers,
Bryce

G'day Bryce, according to the Webster-Merriam Dictionary, the earliest known use of shagreen is 1677 in relation to rough, grainy, untanned horse hide. Subsequently applied to similar leather from other animals (onager, donkey, mule) and later to stingray, shark, etc. Probably from French, chagrin, leather from a horse's croup; from Turkish cagri, rump; and perhaps akin to Mongolian sa'ggru, to sit. Ian

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/shagreen

Jim McDougall · 19th July 2020, 05:36 PM

It seems to me that the term 'shagreen' was most likely a more fashionable term for the grip material than the description 'fish or ray skin', which likely sounded rather grim to status conscious officers and gentry. I have seen the term used in various descriptions pertaining to British swords, particularly of 18th century. It seems this term was used in other material culture or furnishing items as well in British context.

If I recall correctly the Tatar sabers known typically as 'ordynka' (=the horde) were often also termed czeczuga, a term for ray skin grips typically found on these 17th-18th c. sabers. This was described in Ostrowski, ("Origins of the Polish Saber", 1979) but I do not have the article at hand.

In collecting there is a myriad of these kinds of terms used in descriptions often found redundantly referring to essentially the same thing, and terms used which though misnomers and popular vernacular of the time, have become standard in modern use so hard to disassociate.

Either way, it was an attractive and functional material used, as noted, into early oriental times and diffused from Asia into Eastern Europe, where these influences attracted the attention of British sword makers.

Bryce · 20th July 2020, 04:42 AM

G'day Guys,
Came across this photo of a sword in the collection of the York Museum. The blade is marked "Me Fecit Hunsloe" and dates to around 1640. The grip is worn fish skin. No guarantee it hasn't been replaced at some stage, but does suggest the grip on the sword Cathey started the post with could be genuine.
Cheers,
Bryce

Jim McDougall · 20th July 2020, 05:21 AM

Bryce, in complete accord with what you are saying....I have been going through English sword resources for hours concerning our discussion in a concurrent thread and saw the same references. This was I believe on several swords I saw in other sources as well, and these swords of 1620s-50s were indeed with 'fish skin' grips (clearly not using the shagreen term), but certainly showing the material in use in first half 17th c.

Philip · 23rd July 2020, 05:46 AM

On this thread we are talking about the skins of two distinct types of fish. The British sword in the image included in post #1 has a sharkskin-covered grip.

The hilt shown in post #4 has a ray-skin grip.

Shark skin is typically gray, and very fine-grained, with a uniform texture.

There are several varieties of ray (in popular usage, the identifiers manta- and sting- are common adjectives but marine biologists have listed others, living in various areas in the aquasphere. In their natural state, ray skins tend towards white or an ivory shade. The skin is easily dyed, and this was widely practiced for decorative purposes in China. The nodules that form the "grain" on the surface are larger than shark, varying in size according to anatomical location and the species.

On some species, like the hides favored for the hilts on Tatar sabers (czeczugas or ordynkas), one often sees a peculiar distribution of huge, almost star-like nodules interspersed among smaller ones. For the rayskin strips on Japanese hilts, the part of the hide from the center dorsal region of another species was favored for the aesthetics of the graduated row of large nodules. In both these instances, the hides were used au naturel, with the bumps intact.

In China and Japan, the natural hide was sometimes filled with lacquer after being installed on the object, and then ground and polished down flush to leave the grain visible against the dark (usually black) lacquer in the low spots, a very attractive effect. I once saw a rare shield of Indian shape, covered with the "star" rayskin commonly associated with the Tatar hilts referenced above, and given the lacquer treatment as described here in one of the colonies of emigré Japanese craftsmen working in Batavia.

The normal treatment of rayskin on Chinese and Korean scabbards was dyed and polished smooth; jade green and a reddish brown were favored colors. Because the size of the nodules was graduated depending on anatomical location, care had to be taken at seams to match the material as closely as possible to maintain a more or less uniform effect. For this purpose, larger hides were considered more desirable.

Philip · 23rd July 2020, 05:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

G'day Bryce, according to the Webster-Merriam Dictionary, the earliest known use of shagreen is 1677 in relation to rough, grainy, untanned horse hide. Subsequently applied to similar leather from other animals (onager, donkey, mule) and later to stingray, shark, etc. Probably from French, chagrin, leather from a horse's croup; from Turkish cagri, rump; and perhaps akin to Mongolian sa'ggru, to sit. Ian

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/shagreen

A colleague in Israel who works with a leather restorer advised that the typical leather covering on shamshir and kilij scabbards, with the pimpled "chicken-skin" texture, is indeed donkey skin. And the rump provides the best texture!

All of us are anxious to obtain this material for scabbard restoration work, but he looked into the matter and found that the only commercial source for it today is in ... Iran. So we Americans and Israelis are outa luck, rats!!

Battara · 9th August 2020, 07:02 PM

...........or donkeys!

Philip · 9th August 2020, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

leather from other animals (onager...) Probably from French, chagrin, leather from a horse's croup; from Turkish cagri, rump; and perhaps akin to Mongolian sa'ggru, to sit. Ian

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/shagreen

It's worth mentioning, to elaborate on my comment above re donkey skin as used on Persian and Ottoman scabbards, that there there is yet another hide from a related equine species with a decidedly different appearance.

This is the skin of the Inner Asian onager, a wild ass of the steppes, as opposed to the domestic donkey. It was commonly used on the grips and scabbard facings of Tibetan knives and swords. The material can be readily distinguished in appearance and texture from the donkey skin on, say, a Persian shamshir scabbard in that it is somewhat thicker, a chestnut brown in color (phasing to black with extensive handling, but retaining a dull appearance with no luster), and most importantly, having a wrinkled texture as opposed to a pimply, "chicken skin" effect.

I have recently been advised by a contact in the UK that this onager skin has recently been added to the CITES list because of the animals' status in the wild, if so it's yet another restriction on those of us in the trade.

Besides on edged weapons, this type of skin is sometimes encountered on other ethnographic objects from the Himalayan and Mongolian regions.

20th July 2020, 04:42 AM	#3
Bryce Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: North Queensland, Australia Posts: 189	G'day Guys, Came across this photo of a sword in the collection of the York Museum. The blade is marked "Me Fecit Hunsloe" and dates to around 1640. The grip is worn fish skin. No guarantee it hasn't been replaced at some stage, but does suggest the grip on the sword Cathey started the post with could be genuine. Cheers, Bryce Attached Images

23rd July 2020, 05:46 AM	#5
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	Fish of a different species On this thread we are talking about the skins of two distinct types of fish. The British sword in the image included in post #1 has a sharkskin-covered grip. The hilt shown in post #4 has a ray-skin grip. Shark skin is typically gray, and very fine-grained, with a uniform texture. There are several varieties of ray (in popular usage, the identifiers manta- and sting- are common adjectives but marine biologists have listed others, living in various areas in the aquasphere. In their natural state, ray skins tend towards white or an ivory shade. The skin is easily dyed, and this was widely practiced for decorative purposes in China. The nodules that form the "grain" on the surface are larger than shark, varying in size according to anatomical location and the species. On some species, like the hides favored for the hilts on Tatar sabers (czeczugas or ordynkas), one often sees a peculiar distribution of huge, almost star-like nodules interspersed among smaller ones. For the rayskin strips on Japanese hilts, the part of the hide from the center dorsal region of another species was favored for the aesthetics of the graduated row of large nodules. In both these instances, the hides were used au naturel, with the bumps intact. In China and Japan, the natural hide was sometimes filled with lacquer after being installed on the object, and then ground and polished down flush to leave the grain visible against the dark (usually black) lacquer in the low spots, a very attractive effect. I once saw a rare shield of Indian shape, covered with the "star" rayskin commonly associated with the Tatar hilts referenced above, and given the lacquer treatment as described here in one of the colonies of emigré Japanese craftsmen working in Batavia. The normal treatment of rayskin on Chinese and Korean scabbards was dyed and polished smooth; jade green and a reddish brown were favored colors. Because the size of the nodules was graduated depending on anatomical location, care had to be taken at seams to match the material as closely as possible to maintain a more or less uniform effect. For this purpose, larger hides were considered more desirable.

19th July 2020, 05:36 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,458	It seems to me that the term 'shagreen' was most likely a more fashionable term for the grip material than the description 'fish or ray skin', which likely sounded rather grim to status conscious officers and gentry. I have seen the term used in various descriptions pertaining to British swords, particularly of 18th century. It seems this term was used in other material culture or furnishing items as well in British context. If I recall correctly the Tatar sabers known typically as 'ordynka' (=the horde) were often also termed czeczuga, a term for ray skin grips typically found on these 17th-18th c. sabers. This was described in Ostrowski, ("Origins of the Polish Saber", 1979) but I do not have the article at hand. In collecting there is a myriad of these kinds of terms used in descriptions often found redundantly referring to essentially the same thing, and terms used which though misnomers and popular vernacular of the time, have become standard in modern use so hard to disassociate. Either way, it was an attractive and functional material used, as noted, into early oriental times and diffused from Asia into Eastern Europe, where these influences attracted the attention of British sword makers.

20th July 2020, 05:21 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,458	Bryce, in complete accord with what you are saying....I have been going through English sword resources for hours concerning our discussion in a concurrent thread and saw the same references. This was I believe on several swords I saw in other sources as well, and these swords of 1620s-50s were indeed with 'fish skin' grips (clearly not using the shagreen term), but certainly showing the material in use in first half 17th c.

9th August 2020, 07:02 PM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,308	...........or donkeys!