Basket Hilt help?

ulfberth · 2nd July 2020, 02:30 PM

What a find ! a true sleeper , one should ask himself to clean/restore it or not.
Once taken of the patina is gone forever.

Jim McDougall · 2nd July 2020, 04:34 PM

Absolutely mid 18th or slightly earlier, Glasgow style hilt Beautiful!!!
French were not only in Canada then but all through upper midwest and the northeast.......French Indian wars 1740s, mostly due to English concerns over French encroachment into territories etc.
The Scots were of course part of English military forces after Culloden (1746) but in many cases before.

Scottish settlers in Canada through 18th into 19th ....my grandparents were among them.
Story could be right.............regardless, magnificent basket hilt.
PLEASE clean with restraint, stablilize any corrosion.................this is breathtaking,

Another note on potential French element in the provenance, France had a profound Jacobite presence, in fact Prince Charlie was in France preCulloden.
The Jacobite presence continued there after Culloden, and Charles returned there for a time. It would be hard to say exactly how the sword was in Canada, but it is not surprising, these were widely present in America and probably Canada through the latter 18th c. after Culloden.

These also saw extensive use in the American Revolution, see "Swords and Blades of the American Revolution" George Nuemann, 1973.

Jim McDougall · 2nd July 2020, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ulfberth

What a find ! a true sleeper , one should ask himself to clean/restore it or not.
Once taken of the patina is gone forever.

Well said!!!

It is history and signals the well earned veneration of the weapon. It is about respect for history, something that seems to be slipping away.

ulfberth · 2nd July 2020, 08:09 PM

exactly Jim, its the slipping away of these untouched items that we should prevent as much as possible. Some very fine steel wool 000, just to remove the active rust and some wax to preserve is all it needs.

M ELEY · 3rd July 2020, 03:18 AM

I'm with Jim and Ulfberth on the conservation of this piece. Unbelievable find!!! Removing the active rust and stabilizing the grip are priorities. Jim is spot on with the French/Scottish Jacobite connection and the '45' was definitely in the period of this fine sword! A loose connection admittedly, but the French had a strong presence in Canada at the time. In "Culloden: The Swords and the Sorrows", there were Scottish basket hilts with French markings/mottos carried by French officers and Royals. These swords still exist in the museum at Edinburgh.

ulfberth · 3rd July 2020, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

I'm with Jim and Ulfberth on the conservation of this piece. Unbelievable find!!! Removing the active rust and stabilizing the grip are priorities. Jim is spot on with the French/Scottish Jacobite connection and the '45' was definitely in the period of this fine sword! A loose connection admittedly, but the French had a strong presence in Canada at the time. In "Culloden: The Swords and the Sorrows", there were Scottish basket hilts with French markings/mottos carried by French officers and Royals. These swords still exist in the museum at Edinburgh.

on the French - Scottish connection , they even had a Scottish Royal Guards Company in 18th century France

M ELEY · 4th July 2020, 03:52 AM

Thank you for that information! I was unaware and will do a little research on it. Not to derail this thread in any way, but I always wondered if the same was true in the other regard- Scots carrying French weapons during the Rebellion. I'd always imagined some of the renegade Highlanders from the outlands of the New Hebrides armed with such. I have an active imagination, I guess!

Jim McDougall · 4th July 2020, 05:43 PM

Now THATS interesting on the Scots Guards in France! Did not know that, but sounds perfectly logical given the profound Jacobite presence there.
As far as French swords used in the '45, not as a matter of record, but of course possible as there were French participants at Culloden as far as I have understood.
In fact the battle lines are quite unclear, there were many Highlanders with Cumberland's forces, and many English. Lowlanders and French among the Highland troops. Much as with the American Civil War, there was varying causes and ajendas being followed by various group.....there was not one universal rallying cry.

Am interesting note, the fleur de lis found on blades was not necessarily an indicator of it being a French blade, in fact blade dealers in 18th c. England were known to have these on blades. There was a street named
Fleur de lis street there where imported blades were being sold to various 'sword slippers' (dealers mounting hlits to blades) and bundles of blades were sold in lots. This mark has had use in other situations in Europe as well...in Germany the Munich city guard used it etc.

2nd July 2020, 04:34 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	Absolutely mid 18th or slightly earlier, Glasgow style hilt Beautiful!!! French were not only in Canada then but all through upper midwest and the northeast.......French Indian wars 1740s, mostly due to English concerns over French encroachment into territories etc. The Scots were of course part of English military forces after Culloden (1746) but in many cases before. Scottish settlers in Canada through 18th into 19th ....my grandparents were among them. Story could be right.............regardless, magnificent basket hilt. PLEASE clean with restraint, stablilize any corrosion.................this is breathtaking, Another note on potential French element in the provenance, France had a profound Jacobite presence, in fact Prince Charlie was in France preCulloden. The Jacobite presence continued there after Culloden, and Charles returned there for a time. It would be hard to say exactly how the sword was in Canada, but it is not surprising, these were widely present in America and probably Canada through the latter 18th c. after Culloden. These also saw extensive use in the American Revolution, see "Swords and Blades of the American Revolution" George Nuemann, 1973. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 2nd July 2020 at 07:26 PM.

2nd July 2020, 02:30 PM	#1
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 412	What a find ! a true sleeper , one should ask himself to clean/restore it or not. Once taken of the patina is gone forever.

2nd July 2020, 08:09 PM	#4
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 412	exactly Jim, its the slipping away of these untouched items that we should prevent as much as possible. Some very fine steel wool 000, just to remove the active rust and some wax to preserve is all it needs.

3rd July 2020, 03:18 AM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	I'm with Jim and Ulfberth on the conservation of this piece. Unbelievable find!!! Removing the active rust and stabilizing the grip are priorities. Jim is spot on with the French/Scottish Jacobite connection and the '45' was definitely in the period of this fine sword! A loose connection admittedly, but the French had a strong presence in Canada at the time. In "Culloden: The Swords and the Sorrows", there were Scottish basket hilts with French markings/mottos carried by French officers and Royals. These swords still exist in the museum at Edinburgh.

4th July 2020, 03:52 AM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Thank you for that information! I was unaware and will do a little research on it. Not to derail this thread in any way, but I always wondered if the same was true in the other regard- Scots carrying French weapons during the Rebellion. I'd always imagined some of the renegade Highlanders from the outlands of the New Hebrides armed with such. I have an active imagination, I guess!

4th July 2020, 05:43 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	Now THATS interesting on the Scots Guards in France! Did not know that, but sounds perfectly logical given the profound Jacobite presence there. As far as French swords used in the '45, not as a matter of record, but of course possible as there were French participants at Culloden as far as I have understood. In fact the battle lines are quite unclear, there were many Highlanders with Cumberland's forces, and many English. Lowlanders and French among the Highland troops. Much as with the American Civil War, there was varying causes and ajendas being followed by various group.....there was not one universal rallying cry. Am interesting note, the fleur de lis found on blades was not necessarily an indicator of it being a French blade, in fact blade dealers in 18th c. England were known to have these on blades. There was a street named Fleur de lis street there where imported blades were being sold to various 'sword slippers' (dealers mounting hlits to blades) and bundles of blades were sold in lots. This mark has had use in other situations in Europe as well...in Germany the Munich city guard used it etc.