My "new" cup hilt sword for your kind comments

fernando · 31st May 2020, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix

Not sure how relevant this is but on patriarchal cross in Portugal from A Treatise On Ecclesiastical Heraldry by John Woodward: The title of patriarch was given to archbishops of metropolis, perhaps who had other metrolitans under them. Patriarchs have the right to use in the emblem of their dignity a cross with two bars. Roderid da Cunha, Archbishop of Braga and Primate of Portugal used such a cross. The patriarchal cross symbolises the powers of two offices in the same person: Metropolitan in own province but also having authority over other Metropolitans. The use of this symbol is very old. The patriarchate of Lisbon and the Indies was instituted by Clement XI in 1716...

Now, that is a rather interesting approach ... and i thank you for that

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Dom Rodrigo da Cunha 1577-1643 after being Bishop of Portalegre, Bishop of Oporto, and Archbishop of Braga, ended his career as Archbishop of Lisbon, where he was assigned deputy for the inquisition. The interesting part in context is that D. Rodrigo da Cunha, one of the strong opposers to the anexation of Portugal by Spain, having even refused the Cardinalate of Madrid, during the Restauration of Independence war supported the insurgent and, together with the then Archbishop of Braga, governed the kingdom until the return of Dom João IV.
So this explains the engraving of the cross on these swords tang/ricasso; as i view it, more a motivation of patriotism and authority rather than for religious purposes... or perhaps in great part.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix

... The archbishop of Toledo is the Primate of Spain since 1085 but the Archbishop of Braga in Portugal claims the Primacy of the whole peninsula and uses the double cross...

Yes sir, indeed.

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fernando · 8th July 2020, 05:12 PM

I thought i would post a couple pictures (finally) received from the Military Museum, courtesy of its Director Colonel Albuquerque, in which we can see in their example, besides a nicely decorated hilt (cup bowl rim, quillons and knuckle guard), the recurrent threaded tang particularity. But above all, the common features in all three swords shown are the same patriotic inscription, the patriarchal cross and the King's coat of arms. We may gather that, whether these three ( and most possibly more) swords had different provenances, have all been joined and gone under an emblematic intervention, to serve national interests, possibly some King's guard or the like.

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Jim McDougall · 8th July 2020, 07:46 PM

Excellent images and another interesting example Fernando. I think you are on the right track presuming these swords with the 'Patriarchal' cross and the regal motto 'Viva Portugal' seeming to represent a collective grouping of swords with similar motif being from some group or unit of guard forces perhaps.

The cross has brought up some great discussion, and while the Caravaca Cross as previously noted has apocryphal legend attached to it from the 13th c.,
it does seem this commemoration was used in degree talismanically and associated to Knights Templars in the 15th c. With that it seems plausible such application may have steeped into Iberian military orders, and placement on these kinds of blades might have had such imbuement associated.

It would seem as well that your cuphilt (of OP) with a heavy arming blade could have been from perhaps a city guard unit ? and the heavy blade a matter of personal choice. With such a blade, the rapier character seems to be more traditional and almost vestigial. For example the 'rompepuntas' (rolled lip surround on cup) intended ostensibly to catch the fine tip of typical rapier would not serve in that way with heavy striking swords. Still, it may be a construction oriented feature, not sure.
The ricasso of course might still serve to cover finger grip around quillon as known in Italian and Spanish fencing and on other rapiers. With heavy blade it served to steady blade in impact.

The idea that this Patriarchal cross would relate to Orthodox type cross is not the case, as you have previously noted the Russian Orthodox type has the added diagonal bar (suppenaneum) near bottom.
It seems there was a Patriarchal cross WITH crucifix is seen on some examples (the examples of crucifix , Apostolic cross were Pedro Hernandez and H. Cleles associated according to my notes, but possibly others).

fernando · 9th July 2020, 05:49 PM

Thank you for your input, Jim.
Whether this and other crosses have their origin in earlier times, with their religious character and certainly loaded with legendary contents, eventually some contradictory, i have for myself that, once this episcopal cross appears in these swords, this will be an emblem associated to the contemporary period, the war of restoration of Portuguese Independence, as i tried to put in post #30. It was not (at all) the only time the church or its representatives played a role in political issues. Also to note that the crosses engraved in all three swords located, have no Christ crucified in them, thus excluding interpretations related with marks adopted to identify popular smiths ... as suggested ?
Concerning the significant width of the blade first posted, i could not call it a matter of personal choice, as the other example kept where mine came from, has precisely the same width. And of course this type of swords falls competely out of the rapier concept, being no doubt weapons for field combat. Also it seems to me that sword breakers (rompe puntas) do not appear in swords with these features.

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Jim McDougall · 9th July 2020, 06:28 PM

Well put Fernando. It seems there are always efforts to put finite distinctions on these kinds of symbols, motif etc. but actually they become more a product of popularization and association in a commemorative or iconic sense by writers etc. of the time.
It is often hard to place dates or time frames using these kinds of markings accurately without considerable other corroboration.

That is surely the case regarding these large blades, where you note there are a number of other cup hilt examples mounted with them as well. As you note, this does suggest a particular convention toward these 'arming' blades, indicating of course use in a more combative sense militarily rather than the more civilian rapiers, where the rompepuntas served a viable function.

While all we can do is collectively discuss and speculate on these matters, it is most interesting to see all the possibilities brought together so we can all evaluate and form our own perspectives on the possibilities.

fernando · 10th July 2020, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... As you note, this does suggest a particular convention toward these 'arming' blades, indicating of course use in a more combative sense militarily rather than the more civilian rapiers, where the rompepuntas served a viable function...

Jim, i confess this is one of these things i consider a riddle, until i read a convincing statement produced by a fencing expert or some old written material supporting this story of the rompe puntas (points breaker). While i admit that i as too quick to state that these implements do not match with certain sword features, i think of them as been more of an ornamental addition than a practical fencing device. An exponential version would be seen in the attached sword, as late (for the case) as of the XVIII century. But even considering swords as early as when these rompe puntas started to be seen (XVI century ?) within my ignorant no knowledge, i take it as a pure fantasy that, during a fight, one would be able to manage the blocking of the adversary's sword tip with such a shallow cannelure ... and ingeniously break it. Nothwidstanding that a tipless sword still functions with almost the same capacity.

(Picture cortesy Eduardo Nobre).

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Jim McDougall · 10th July 2020, 08:02 PM

I must confess Fernando, that my note on the rompe puntas was a bit tongue in cheek, viable in the sense of what writers 'considered' an explanation. This rolled lip seems to me more a construction matter and a means of a more 'finished' look. The absence of this on typically somewhat thicker metal in hilts from more workmanlike shops is more a matter of convenience.

The 'sword breaker' syndrome is something more or less contrived by innovative fencing and arms writers in earlier times, and according to Egerton Castle, in his "Schools and Masters of Fence", those toothed left hand daggers (main gauche) were never actually used, particularly for the purpose suggested. As you well note, all these contrivances and features alleged to 'catch' opponents blade are fanciful, and it would take the full cooperation of the opponent to achieve the necessary contact and position to carry out. In the same sense, this thin lip would only catch a sword tip almost miraculously, and surely would not break it as it deflected away.

I think one of the most intriguing topics in the study of edged weapons is the incredible amount of 'lore' with sword elements and features. It would be a worthy topic to have a thread on the lore and esoterica of sword features, so I would not carry it further here. I have appreciated the many aspects and Portuguese terms of many of these you have shared here over the years in studying these rapiers.

.[/QUOTE]

8th July 2020, 05:12 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	I thought i would post a couple pictures (finally) received from the Military Museum, courtesy of its Director Colonel Albuquerque, in which we can see in their example, besides a nicely decorated hilt (cup bowl rim, quillons and knuckle guard), the recurrent threaded tang particularity. But above all, the common features in all three swords shown are the same patriotic inscription, the patriarchal cross and the King's coat of arms. We may gather that, whether these three ( and most possibly more) swords had different provenances, have all been joined and gone under an emblematic intervention, to serve national interests, possibly some King's guard or the like. . Attached Images

9th July 2020, 05:49 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you for your input, Jim. Whether this and other crosses have their origin in earlier times, with their religious character and certainly loaded with legendary contents, eventually some contradictory, i have for myself that, once this episcopal cross appears in these swords, this will be an emblem associated to the contemporary period, the war of restoration of Portuguese Independence, as i tried to put in post #30. It was not (at all) the only time the church or its representatives played a role in political issues. Also to note that the crosses engraved in all three swords located, have no Christ crucified in them, thus excluding interpretations related with marks adopted to identify popular smiths ... as suggested ? Concerning the significant width of the blade first posted, i could not call it a matter of personal choice, as the other example kept where mine came from, has precisely the same width. And of course this type of swords falls competely out of the rapier concept, being no doubt weapons for field combat. Also it seems to me that sword breakers (rompe puntas) do not appear in swords with these features. . Attached Images

8th July 2020, 07:46 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,191	Excellent images and another interesting example Fernando. I think you are on the right track presuming these swords with the 'Patriarchal' cross and the regal motto 'Viva Portugal' seeming to represent a collective grouping of swords with similar motif being from some group or unit of guard forces perhaps. The cross has brought up some great discussion, and while the Caravaca Cross as previously noted has apocryphal legend attached to it from the 13th c., it does seem this commemoration was used in degree talismanically and associated to Knights Templars in the 15th c. With that it seems plausible such application may have steeped into Iberian military orders, and placement on these kinds of blades might have had such imbuement associated. It would seem as well that your cuphilt (of OP) with a heavy arming blade could have been from perhaps a city guard unit ? and the heavy blade a matter of personal choice. With such a blade, the rapier character seems to be more traditional and almost vestigial. For example the 'rompepuntas' (rolled lip surround on cup) intended ostensibly to catch the fine tip of typical rapier would not serve in that way with heavy striking swords. Still, it may be a construction oriented feature, not sure. The ricasso of course might still serve to cover finger grip around quillon as known in Italian and Spanish fencing and on other rapiers. With heavy blade it served to steady blade in impact. The idea that this Patriarchal cross would relate to Orthodox type cross is not the case, as you have previously noted the Russian Orthodox type has the added diagonal bar (suppenaneum) near bottom. It seems there was a Patriarchal cross WITH crucifix is seen on some examples (the examples of crucifix , Apostolic cross were Pedro Hernandez and H. Cleles associated according to my notes, but possibly others).

9th July 2020, 06:28 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,191	Well put Fernando. It seems there are always efforts to put finite distinctions on these kinds of symbols, motif etc. but actually they become more a product of popularization and association in a commemorative or iconic sense by writers etc. of the time. It is often hard to place dates or time frames using these kinds of markings accurately without considerable other corroboration. That is surely the case regarding these large blades, where you note there are a number of other cup hilt examples mounted with them as well. As you note, this does suggest a particular convention toward these 'arming' blades, indicating of course use in a more combative sense militarily rather than the more civilian rapiers, where the rompepuntas served a viable function. While all we can do is collectively discuss and speculate on these matters, it is most interesting to see all the possibilities brought together so we can all evaluate and form our own perspectives on the possibilities.

10th July 2020, 08:02 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,191	I must confess Fernando, that my note on the rompe puntas was a bit tongue in cheek, viable in the sense of what writers 'considered' an explanation. This rolled lip seems to me more a construction matter and a means of a more 'finished' look. The absence of this on typically somewhat thicker metal in hilts from more workmanlike shops is more a matter of convenience. The 'sword breaker' syndrome is something more or less contrived by innovative fencing and arms writers in earlier times, and according to Egerton Castle, in his "Schools and Masters of Fence", those toothed left hand daggers (main gauche) were never actually used, particularly for the purpose suggested. As you well note, all these contrivances and features alleged to 'catch' opponents blade are fanciful, and it would take the full cooperation of the opponent to achieve the necessary contact and position to carry out. In the same sense, this thin lip would only catch a sword tip almost miraculously, and surely would not break it as it deflected away. I think one of the most intriguing topics in the study of edged weapons is the incredible amount of 'lore' with sword elements and features. It would be a worthy topic to have a thread on the lore and esoterica of sword features, so I would not carry it further here. I have appreciated the many aspects and Portuguese terms of many of these you have shared here over the years in studying these rapiers. .[/QUOTE]