Ottoman banner spears?

mmontoro · 13th May 2006, 07:14 PM

Ward, that is an interesting example you furnished in that the ferrule looks very Javanese, but the blade resembles one I have that I believe is Moro. I remember watching it on auction. I'll try to post images later.

M.

Let's see if these show up ok. The budiak on top and the tombak below it

M.carter · 13th May 2006, 07:35 PM

This raises an interesting question, how did these Indonesian items got to Syria? Its a very far away country geographically, and historically and culturally, it had/has no affliation with Syria, and as erlikhan said, he bought these items from Syria.

ward · 13th May 2006, 07:48 PM

maybe a syrian was working overseas and picked it,diplomat,etc. I once bought a very good Turkish rifle out of a chicken coup in the country side of Maryland. You never know where things will turn up

erlikhan · 13th May 2006, 07:52 PM

I didnt buy them from Syria.A known syrian dealer brought them from Syria,along with many certainly Ottoman period non-arms antiquities .And they were in bad condition which denies a past as a part of any collection,silvers got black and there were no sticks.So nothing that deserves to get imported to Syria from Indonesia by looking..But I accept there are similarities in both structure and decoration styles with the indonesian ones.Are there no native Indonesian members in the forum?Their opinion could help.

And M.Carter,if it will not bother you,I would like very much to see those Bedouin lance pictures.

ward · 13th May 2006, 08:03 PM

I have seen us civil war weapons in Germany. Indian weapons in Morocco and Mexico. Most are not that spectaular. Things move around and show up. Just a observation.

ward

M.carter · 13th May 2006, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erlikhan

I didnt buy them from Syria.A known syrian dealer brought them from Syria,along with many certainly Ottoman period non-arms antiquities .And they were in bad condition which denies a past as a part of any collection,silvers got black and there were no sticks.So nothing that deserves to get imported to Syria from Indonesia by looking..But I accept there are similarities in both structure and decoration styles with the indonesian ones.Are there no native Indonesian members in the forum?Their opinion could help.

And M.Carter,if it will not bother you,I would like very much to see those Bedouin lance pictures.

They could be Indonesian, I never said they werent, but they could also have been Syrian

Here you go:

Battara · 15th May 2006, 07:43 PM

"but the blade resembles one I have that I believe is Moro."

Mmontoro, your Moro spear is wonderful, especially the blade. Deeply etched and I'll bet having a twist core. Ferrule is Moro.

mmontoro · 16th May 2006, 03:08 PM

Thank you, Jose. Coming from you that certainly is a compliment. It is twisted core and also complete with the original long shaft. I felt very strongly about the Moro attribution, but having made a boo-boo or two in print here before, I rarely state anything as a fact. Eyes/ears open and mouth shut is my current philosophy ;^)

How is your current backlog of work?

Battara · 17th May 2006, 01:44 AM

My backlog is coming along fine, thankyou.

Seriously, I am catching up (and my last job search and illness set me back some).

Folks can send me requests and stuff (still working on stuff in the meantime).

Amaris · 8th September 2006, 05:54 AM

HI,
I saw your thread.

I haven't seen a good example of a Tugh prior to 1600. But, this is my take on it. This was my first one, so I didn't use real horse hair.

I experimented with white wig hair and the black hair from a Halloween witches hat. The wig hair worked the best of the two. The black hair from the witches hat was too plastic-y. It tangles, and is just a real pain to work with. The dowel is wrapped with Macrame Cording that came with a slight pattern in it. The tuft of hair that sticks out at the top is supported by triple wrapping the cording above it. Then, wrapping the wig hair around to whatever thickness you want. I added a thick bottom after the tuft for support and a balanced effect to the area. I screwed up the center pony tails by trying to wrap the black hair with each wrap of cording. This created an effect of layers. So, I'm gathering hair from several layers in order to make a pony tail. If I had just wrapped the hair onto the dowel like the very bottom, I then could have created my pony tails and they would have looked better.
I also tried to make a "Ball" on the dowel with red cording,... I just can't figure out how to do it, yet.

13th May 2006, 07:14 PM	#1
mmontoro Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 91	Ward, that is an interesting example you furnished in that the ferrule looks very Javanese, but the blade resembles one I have that I believe is Moro. I remember watching it on auction. I'll try to post images later. M. Let's see if these show up ok. The budiak on top and the tombak below it Last edited by mmontoro; 14th May 2006 at 12:17 AM. Reason: add images

8th September 2006, 05:54 AM	#10
Amaris Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 3	My attempt at recreating a Tugh HI, I saw your thread. I haven't seen a good example of a Tugh prior to 1600. But, this is my take on it. This was my first one, so I didn't use real horse hair. I experimented with white wig hair and the black hair from a Halloween witches hat. The wig hair worked the best of the two. The black hair from the witches hat was too plastic-y. It tangles, and is just a real pain to work with. The dowel is wrapped with Macrame Cording that came with a slight pattern in it. The tuft of hair that sticks out at the top is supported by triple wrapping the cording above it. Then, wrapping the wig hair around to whatever thickness you want. I added a thick bottom after the tuft for support and a balanced effect to the area. I screwed up the center pony tails by trying to wrap the black hair with each wrap of cording. This created an effect of layers. So, I'm gathering hair from several layers in order to make a pony tail. If I had just wrapped the hair onto the dowel like the very bottom, I then could have created my pony tails and they would have looked better. I also tried to make a "Ball" on the dowel with red cording,... I just can't figure out how to do it, yet. Attached Images

13th May 2006, 07:35 PM	#2
M.carter Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 176	This raises an interesting question, how did these Indonesian items got to Syria? Its a very far away country geographically, and historically and culturally, it had/has no affliation with Syria, and as erlikhan said, he bought these items from Syria.

13th May 2006, 07:48 PM	#3
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	maybe a syrian was working overseas and picked it,diplomat,etc. I once bought a very good Turkish rifle out of a chicken coup in the country side of Maryland. You never know where things will turn up

13th May 2006, 07:52 PM	#4
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	I didnt buy them from Syria.A known syrian dealer brought them from Syria,along with many certainly Ottoman period non-arms antiquities .And they were in bad condition which denies a past as a part of any collection,silvers got black and there were no sticks.So nothing that deserves to get imported to Syria from Indonesia by looking..But I accept there are similarities in both structure and decoration styles with the indonesian ones.Are there no native Indonesian members in the forum?Their opinion could help. And M.Carter,if it will not bother you,I would like very much to see those Bedouin lance pictures.

13th May 2006, 08:03 PM	#5
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	I have seen us civil war weapons in Germany. Indian weapons in Morocco and Mexico. Most are not that spectaular. Things move around and show up. Just a observation. ward

15th May 2006, 07:43 PM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	"but the blade resembles one I have that I believe is Moro." Mmontoro, your Moro spear is wonderful, especially the blade. Deeply etched and I'll bet having a twist core. Ferrule is Moro.

16th May 2006, 03:08 PM	#8
mmontoro Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 91	Thank you, Jose. Coming from you that certainly is a compliment. It is twisted core and also complete with the original long shaft. I felt very strongly about the Moro attribution, but having made a boo-boo or two in print here before, I rarely state anything as a fact. Eyes/ears open and mouth shut is my current philosophy ;^) How is your current backlog of work?

17th May 2006, 01:44 AM	#9
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	My backlog is coming along fine, thankyou. Seriously, I am catching up (and my last job search and illness set me back some). Folks can send me requests and stuff (still working on stuff in the meantime).