DOEHOENG KASOENDAN (A Soenda Perspective)

JBG163 · 1st April 2020, 04:23 PM

Amuk, i can't pm you sadly ? Can you send me an email please ? Thanks

jagabuwana · 1st April 2020, 11:28 PM

Quote:

Comments: Taroem(=indigo) is traditionally identified with Soenda, hence the band.

Kang Amuk, I am interested to learn more about the association between tarum and Sunda. Do you have any resources, or perhaps you can share more yourself?

Amuk Murugul · 20th December 2020, 01:25 AM

Hullo Alan,

"In English "Basa Sunda Jero" can be understood as "Inside Language", in the sense of a select language not meant to be understood by everybody, as I was told, a jargon the purpose of which was to keep secret those things that outsiders should not know.

In fact, it cannot be compared to either Kromo Inggil or Kromo Madyo, which are distinct hierarchical forms of Formal Modern Javanese."

To be more specific, it is the equivalent of Djawa Bagongan.

Hullo Jean,

". The blade looks much older that the hilt and scabbard. This type of hilt is apparently made in Lombok, or perhaps Bali or Sumbawa?"

The blade is the ‘heart’, so ‘dress’ is not important and may see many changes throughout the blade’s life.
The hilt COULD have been made in the lesser Soenda islands.
The main difference between your example and mine: yours appears to be more stereotypical Bugis, with a hair-clasp/bledegan and greater proportion forward-leaning.

". This style of pendok overlapping on the atasan is fequently seen these days but is it an original design?"

I may be wrong, but I don’t think that I have ever seen one from outside western Java. It was designed for practicality. It goes back to at least the 19thC.

". Koekoedoeng = Kembang kacang, djalwan = jalen, pentil = pejetan, and ladjer = greneng"

Koekoedoeng = carina~ toelale, djalwan=stamen~ djalen, pentil = fruitset~ lambej, ladjer= prop~ gandi.

Hullo jagabuwana,

Back in the day, Soenda were known for their indigo dye, Djawa for their red dye, so fabric were sent to different areas to get dyed the right colours.
Back to your question:
CiTAROEM river.
TAROEManagara kingdom.

As has often been pointed out in this forum:
To understand a product, one has to understand the language, the culture and the history of the people who produced it.

Best,

jagabuwana · 21st December 2020, 12:13 AM

Nuhun, Amuk Murugul. I do agree that to understand something, the language must also be understood. So I'm inclined to go further.

The reason I asked the question about the connection between Sunda and tarum (indigo) is because it is often taken to be self-evident that Sunda culture and lands have long been associated with tarum. As you mention, the river Citarum and the 5th century kingdom of Tarumanagara bear this name, and tarum means indigo in Sundanese today and likely also meant indigo in the local language in the time of Purnawarman

However I've personally only seen fairly modern sources that use the indigo colour to symbolise something Sundanese (let's say 18th century onwards) - and I seem to have trouble locating any sources that indicate the plant, dye or colour being of any symbolic relevance or even as a commodity of note. I am well aware too that we are talking about knowledges and facts pertaining to a Nusantara culture here and so historicity gives way to changing narrative and folkloric belief. Folklore, the passage of time as well as the obvious the meaning of "tarum" has perhaps lent weight to the symbolism of indigo and its connection to Sunda. But historicity in this case provides a richer understanding of the history and etymology behind the tarum in Tarumanagara or Citarum.

For this, Robert Wessing's (2011) Tarumanagara: What's in a name? (Journal of South East Asian Studies, 42:2, pp.325-327) provides a very well argued alternative for the origins of "tarum. Here are some interesting points:

-- There is no evidence to suggest that indigo as a commodity was particularly noteworthy by either Tarumanagara or to the places they exported their commodities to.

-- Tarum is not a word that exists in Sanskrit, but it probably corresponds to the tamil tarumam, which is dharma in Sanskrit. Tarumanagara then likely means something more like The State of Dharma, or Dharma Country. Wessing supports this argument through explaining that Purnawarman's court and city may have been deliberately built to be flanked by canals which were named Candrabagha and Gomati, which are sacred rivers on the Indian subcontinent.

-- Just as Candrabagha and Gomati were the names of existing rivers on the subcontinent, so too is the name "Tarum" in South India (e.g. Tarumapuram, Tarumaputtiran, Tarumaraja). It was likely that the Taruma inclusion was brought over by Tamil Hindu migrants who occupied positions of influence in Tarumanagara.

-- The understanding that the inclusion of the word tarum in Citarum or Tarumanagara originated from the word for indigo is coincidental. The word probably did mean indigo in the local language in 5th century. Indigo was known to grow freely on the banks of the Citarum, and so the double-meaning was accepted and applied.

Amuk Murugul · 21st December 2020, 04:13 AM

Hullo jagabuwana,

You asked and I answered. As is usually the case, what I provide is as is, to be taken or dismissed. I don’t engage in debate, I find it too taxing and time-consuming and am rather academically-challenged. I have confidence in my info, until I am provided with incontrovertible evidence to the contrary, in which case I will adjust accordingly.
To me, it ultimately boils down to a question of confidence/faith.

Best,

jagabuwana · 21st December 2020, 04:46 AM

I didn't intend to debate or disprove you, but to add more information and perspective that I found interesting and satisfying, with the hope that others might too.

Amuk Murugul · 21st December 2020, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jagabuwana

I didn't intend to debate or disprove you, but to add more information and perspective that I found interesting and satisfying, with the hope that others might too.

Hullo jagabuwana,

It appears that I may have been too abrupt and thus been misunderstood.
For that I sincerely apologise. I was merely reiterating what I've often said in this room. No offence was taken. After all, the device on the side-panel states: 'kandel koelit'.

Of course I totally agree with what you stated. I'll happily listen-in at what transpires. I am here to learn.

All the best for the new year!

David · 21st December 2020, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amuk Murugul

Hullo jagabuwana,
You asked and I answered. As is usually the case, what I provide is as is, to be taken or dismissed. I don’t engage in debate, I find it too taxing and time-consuming and am rather academically-challenged. I have confidence in my info, until I am provided with incontrovertible evidence to the contrary, in which case I will adjust accordingly.
To me, it ultimately boils down to a question of confidence/faith.

Just a suggestion that you try approaching questions not as arguments or lead-ins to debate, but rather as discussion points. We are, after all, a discussion group. We all learn through conversation and sharing of ideas.
I as well consider myself to be a somewhat academically challenged collector. I hold no degrees in Javanese anthropology or any related fields. This is not to say that the academics are always correct, but it seems odd to so quickly dismiss them in favour of faith when there may, in fact, be new things we can learn from them.
Just for the fun of it, a list of academic papers pertaining to Javanese culture from Robert Wessing.

https://independent.academia.edu/RobertWessing

Amuk Murugul · 21st December 2020, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Just a suggestion that you try approaching questions not as arguments or lead-ins to debate, but rather as discussion points. We are, after all, a discussion group. We all learn through conversation and sharing of ideas.
I as well consider myself to be a somewhat academically challenged collector. I hold no degrees in Javanese anthropology or any related fields. This is not to say that the academics are always correct, but it seems odd to so quickly dismiss them in favour of faith when there may, in fact, be new things we can learn from them.
Just for the fun of it, a list of academic papers pertaining to Javanese culture from Robert Wessing.

https://independent.academia.edu/RobertWessing

Hullo David,

Firstly, I generally agree with what you have stated.
However:"This is not to say that the academics are always correct, but it seems odd to so quickly dismiss them in favour of faith when there may, in fact, be new things we can learn from them."
If this is taken to apply to me, then I believe that you have misunderstood me.
By 'faith', I mean it in the generic sense.
In decades of research, I have always tried to trace data to their original source. I have found that some authors tend to have faith in their references and accept them as gospel, not checking their veracity; thus propagating any errors which occurred up the line.
So, no, I don't dismiss them. I merely check their veracity.
That's why I have confidence in my results.
I only contribute to a conversation (banter aside) if I think that it may have value, otherwise I am quite happy to sit back, watch and learn.
As an example of what I meant with faith as a bottom line:
People had 'faith' in this particular Nobel Prize scientist, until in a subsequent project, it was found that the scientist had 'manipulated'/'extrapolated' the results.
Similarly when I mention 'agama'. People immediately think 'religion'. My definition of agama: darmasiksa; traditional/holy/teaching doctrine(s).

I apologise for the rant, but I thought some clarification was needed.

All the best for the coming year!

1st April 2020, 04:23 PM	#1
JBG163 Member Join Date: Sep 2019 Location: France Posts: 208	Amuk, i can't pm you sadly ? Can you send me an email please ? Thanks

20th December 2020, 01:25 AM	#3
Amuk Murugul Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Kaboejoetan Galoenggoeng Mélben Posts: 472	Hullo Alan, "In English "Basa Sunda Jero" can be understood as "Inside Language", in the sense of a select language not meant to be understood by everybody, as I was told, a jargon the purpose of which was to keep secret those things that outsiders should not know. In fact, it cannot be compared to either Kromo Inggil or Kromo Madyo, which are distinct hierarchical forms of Formal Modern Javanese." To be more specific, it is the equivalent of Djawa Bagongan. Hullo Jean, ". The blade looks much older that the hilt and scabbard. This type of hilt is apparently made in Lombok, or perhaps Bali or Sumbawa?" The blade is the ‘heart’, so ‘dress’ is not important and may see many changes throughout the blade’s life. The hilt COULD have been made in the lesser Soenda islands. The main difference between your example and mine: yours appears to be more stereotypical Bugis, with a hair-clasp/bledegan and greater proportion forward-leaning. ". This style of pendok overlapping on the atasan is fequently seen these days but is it an original design?" I may be wrong, but I don’t think that I have ever seen one from outside western Java. It was designed for practicality. It goes back to at least the 19thC. ". Koekoedoeng = Kembang kacang, djalwan = jalen, pentil = pejetan, and ladjer = greneng" Koekoedoeng = carina~ toelale, djalwan=stamen~ djalen, pentil = fruitset~ lambej, ladjer= prop~ gandi. Hullo jagabuwana, Back in the day, Soenda were known for their indigo dye, Djawa for their red dye, so fabric were sent to different areas to get dyed the right colours. Back to your question: CiTAROEM river. TAROEManagara kingdom. As has often been pointed out in this forum: To understand a product, one has to understand the language, the culture and the history of the people who produced it. Best,

21st December 2020, 12:13 AM	#4
jagabuwana Member Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 290	Nuhun, Amuk Murugul. I do agree that to understand something, the language must also be understood. So I'm inclined to go further. The reason I asked the question about the connection between Sunda and tarum (indigo) is because it is often taken to be self-evident that Sunda culture and lands have long been associated with tarum. As you mention, the river Citarum and the 5th century kingdom of Tarumanagara bear this name, and tarum means indigo in Sundanese today and likely also meant indigo in the local language in the time of Purnawarman However I've personally only seen fairly modern sources that use the indigo colour to symbolise something Sundanese (let's say 18th century onwards) - and I seem to have trouble locating any sources that indicate the plant, dye or colour being of any symbolic relevance or even as a commodity of note. I am well aware too that we are talking about knowledges and facts pertaining to a Nusantara culture here and so historicity gives way to changing narrative and folkloric belief. Folklore, the passage of time as well as the obvious the meaning of "tarum" has perhaps lent weight to the symbolism of indigo and its connection to Sunda. But historicity in this case provides a richer understanding of the history and etymology behind the tarum in Tarumanagara or Citarum. For this, Robert Wessing's (2011) Tarumanagara: What's in a name? (Journal of South East Asian Studies, 42:2, pp.325-327) provides a very well argued alternative for the origins of "tarum. Here are some interesting points: -- There is no evidence to suggest that indigo as a commodity was particularly noteworthy by either Tarumanagara or to the places they exported their commodities to. -- Tarum is not a word that exists in Sanskrit, but it probably corresponds to the tamil tarumam, which is dharma in Sanskrit. Tarumanagara then likely means something more like The State of Dharma, or Dharma Country. Wessing supports this argument through explaining that Purnawarman's court and city may have been deliberately built to be flanked by canals which were named Candrabagha and Gomati, which are sacred rivers on the Indian subcontinent. -- Just as Candrabagha and Gomati were the names of existing rivers on the subcontinent, so too is the name "Tarum" in South India (e.g. Tarumapuram, Tarumaputtiran, Tarumaraja). It was likely that the Taruma inclusion was brought over by Tamil Hindu migrants who occupied positions of influence in Tarumanagara. -- The understanding that the inclusion of the word tarum in Citarum or Tarumanagara originated from the word for indigo is coincidental. The word probably did mean indigo in the local language in 5th century. Indigo was known to grow freely on the banks of the Citarum, and so the double-meaning was accepted and applied.

21st December 2020, 04:13 AM	#5
Amuk Murugul Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Kaboejoetan Galoenggoeng Mélben Posts: 472	Hullo jagabuwana, You asked and I answered. As is usually the case, what I provide is as is, to be taken or dismissed. I don’t engage in debate, I find it too taxing and time-consuming and am rather academically-challenged. I have confidence in my info, until I am provided with incontrovertible evidence to the contrary, in which case I will adjust accordingly. To me, it ultimately boils down to a question of confidence/faith. Best,

21st December 2020, 04:46 AM	#6
jagabuwana Member Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 290	I didn't intend to debate or disprove you, but to add more information and perspective that I found interesting and satisfying, with the hope that others might too.