ID for Ancient Kujang / Kudi? Hindu /Siam/Persian influence?

[doecon]

Maisey thanks for sharing, again. I was a bit off with the location of the relief, but thanks for correcting me.

Regarding the square tang, I agree indeed that it’s for blade stability. (Its probably easier to create as well). I have indeed read our article, but I came to a different conclusion. Combination of a larger tang and a square tang would be optimal for any (half) circular movement (up-down or sideways) with the arm (or arms), in my opinion this includes “slashing”. (many slashing weapons do have a square tang, right?). This doesn’t include the keris budha, of course, since it seems rather useless to slash with a short blade.

Mentioning the item being a possible axe helped a lot. I honestly didn’t see that before.
After some quick and rough research I came across a “axe-dagger” or “axe-knife” which has very similar features, originating from the Gujarat area India. (Java was a regular destination for traders from the Gujarat area in those days, shipments included iron and damaststeel).

The axe I’m referring to is called Bhuj (after the city) or Kutti (Kuttai means to cut). It has a tang and is placed on a larger stick (3 times bladesize) so it indicates a doublehand grip..and indeed used for “circular movements”. It comes very near this actual example, but I have to admit that the one in the Sukuh relief has better resemblance (maybe the tip of mine has indeed broken off). It also explains why the tang is rather long and maybe…just maybe..it sounds a bit similar to Kudi (which is probably a late cousin of this blade)

I do not think the name “wedung” is proper for this blade, but I haven’t found a better one yet myself. So I guess its kudi, till proven better

BI: sorry for the misunderstanding
Drdavid: A round hole is indeed easier to make in a smaller pommel, so probably a smaller pommel required a round tang as well. Good point.
Pangeran: Thanks for your comments, I stick to “Kudi” for this blade, but as mentioned probably an early form, looking forward however to see the “needle” tang.

[A. G. Maisey]

Regarding round tangs and tangs with sides:- if you are going to forge round, you draw down to square first, so a tang with sides is faster to forge, however, the tang in a modern keris is not forged round, it is made round by stock removal.What I wrote on the tang of Buda style keris was only intended to apply to those implements. One may be able to extend reasoning into another dimension, but my comments were specific to the keris Buda alone.

The implement under discussion cannot be named with any certainty, nor can the suggestion of a possible name be discounted. The language we are dealing with is Old Javanese, which has not been in use since the 1600`s. In Old Javanese one of the words for an axe is "wedun(g)". This implement may be a wedun(g), or it may not be. Certainly it bears no similarity to the knife that we presently know as a wedung, but this modern knife is purely ceremonial in function, indicating the willingness of the wearer to cut a way through the jungle for his lord.However, it is not valid to discount a name, nor attempt to affix with any certainty a name, for any archaic object, basing that attempt upon present day names for present day objects.
Of course, for simplification of reference we can call this object anything we wish, but that does not mean that we are using the name by which it was called by the people who made and used it.However, in Old Javanese a kudhi was a knife with a curved blade used to cut grass and that had a bulge in the blade near to the handle; I do not think that this definition is suitable to describe the object under discussion.
I have some difficulty in understanding why we need to give this object a name at all. It is obvious that we cannot name it correctly.

Any bhuj that I have ever seen bears not the smallest resemblance to the object under discussion, in any case, there is little or no validity in comparison of a 19th century Indian object with a Javanese object from the far distant past.

I do not understand why we are attempting to link this archaic Javanese object with objects from other places. It is a tool, or perhaps a tool/weapon, its origin is Jawa, and Jawa did have an indigenous culture of its own, prior to contact with the Indian subcontinent, and subsequently with other parts of the world. The nature of Javanese society and culture is that it has continually absorbed and modified input from other cultures, so it may well be that this humble little iron implement did have a progenitor from some other culture, or it could be that it is something uniquely Javanese. To settle this question would require an immense amount of very dedicated and intense research, at the end of which, no answer may be able to be provided.In any case, this object is one of a class of objects. These objects bear similarities in construction and form, but all are different.

Based upon the objects of similar form that I have seen over the years, I am inclined to consider this type of object something that was fairly widely spread throughout Jawa for a considerable length of time. The Early Classical period in Jawa was to roughly 1000AD, after which there was a shift of power to East Jawa, we had a procession of kingdoms in East Jawa, culminating with Majapahit which was finished prior to 1525, the Islamic kingdoms followed Majapahit, and the move back to the interior came with Pajang, followed by the foundation of the House of Mataram, which is still with us today. From this, it can be seen that there is a continuity to Javanese culture that is not based simply upon the place where the ruler happens to be at any one time. In fact, the influence of the East Jawa kingdom of Majapahit extended into Central Jawa, and the Lord of Pengging, located near present day Kartasura, was in fact one of Majapahit`s most influential nobles.Candi Sukuh, which is only a short distance from Pengging, was built during the Majapahit era, and in an area that was under the control and influence of Majapahit. To draw a distinction between Sukuh`s Central Javanese location and an East Javanese center of power is a fallacious exercise.

I have seen objects similar to the one under discussion that were discovered in Central Jawa, I have also seen such objects that were discovered in East Jawa.

Why should it be necessary for these objects to have originated from some outside source?

Did the Javanese people not have a need for tools throughout history?

And would they not have developed tools suitable to their needs?


David, the figures shown at Sukuh with these type of implements are---as near as I can recall---not noblemen. The mention I made of noblemen was in relation to the figures depicted in the stele, one acting as smith, the other operating the bellows.

If we forget all about the fact that this is an archaic iron implement. Lets say we stumbled across it in a local hardware store. What use might we be able to put it to? I would suggest that the hooked blade would be perfect for lopping small branches from trees, as with a pruning hook, or the modern Javanese bendo, and the axe-like section of the blade would be perfect for chopping those branches into smaller pieces.The form of this implement would make it a very useful tool.

[doecon]

Alan, its very kind that you have taken the time and effort to answer and share your professional view and knowledge. I had no serious intention in “naming” the object, but was trying to keep it out of the “Unnamed Forged Object” category.

The wedungs I have seen are indeed of the last few centuries, I’m unaware of the earlier type you referred to. In case you have some guidance of its whereabouts, I would love to take a look.

I agree that Javanese were perfectly capable to create their own tools and weapons. The item discussed can well be such a tool. The reason I assumed that it could have been a “migrated” (as in; influenced by Indian design, in this case) object is merely a result of my own limited logical reasoning.

In my humble opinion the origin of tools and weapons can be either from local developed (as in created for the job and then adapted in changing times) or migrated/intergrated from a foreigner source (and then again adapted, changed or rejected in time). Since the object itself is no longer in existence and since its “lifetime” on java was limited, I assumed a foreigner source.

In the first case (local) you would find a whole range of developments, improvements changes and adaptations for such an object. Your article referred to above describes this very clearly, regarding the Keris.

In the second case (foreigner source) I would assume the item is either quickly adapted (for doing the job), changed to local customs (doing the job, but better) or rejected after a short lifetime (replaced by a locally created better adapted tool).

Since this item obviously had a shorter lifetime I assumed it belonged to the second group. But again this is just my own basic theory to simplify the complex world.

Forgive me my ignorance, but I’m still left with some questions before I put my reasoning with the garbage. I hope you can bring some lights on the following;.

There are obvious differences of experience between Java and India, concerning the creation of iron tools. In India for example the history of creating Iron tools goes back to approx 1000 BC. Isn’t this kind of “superiority” in combination with “close” contact (Hindu settlers, occupiers for centuries in Java) a reason to take migration of tools serious?

Iron and later damaststeel was shipped from India to Java. Is it not possible to assume that some blade designs might have well been shipped and/or exchanged as well?

I do see a very strong correlation with weapons displayed on 9th C and 10th C durga statues in java and their “cousins” in India in the same time. As mentioned before the Chackra among others is clearly visible. Is this maybe a sign that some of those weapons were indeed “migrated”, rather then developed locally?

Now back to this ugly axe of mine: )
As you mentioned it would indeed be very useful to chop off small wood. If this would indeed be the main purpose and people still need to chop small wood, then why did it no longer exist in the last few centuries ?

Finally a question a bit of topic, but something that puzzled me after reading your article on the history of the keris. You mention that the shape of keris (pommel, blade etc) was adapted (as from what I understand in relatively short time) to fit better with the local dress and way to handle the weapon (I’m not trying to quote).

It implies that the first type keris did not yet adapt very well yet. I’m seriously curios, why wouldn’t they have created a keris in the first time that fits in the dress and is easy to draw? (Did the dress really change that much? Wasn’t their enough periods of conflicts before? ) Or is there still a slight possibility that the keris originated from a foreigner source and was not yet adapted to local customs?

I hope you can enlighten be a bit.

[A. G. Maisey]

Quote:-

"--- I’m unaware of the earlier type you referred to. In case you have some guidance of its whereabouts, I would love to take a look.---"

I claim no knowledge of the form of the implement known in Old Javanese as "wedung". I know only that the word "wedung" in Old Javanese refers to a type of axe.
I apologise for being insufficiently clear in my expression.

I have no problem with the transmigration of styles of tools or other objects, however, an object such as the one under discussion is most likely from the common people, and is one of a class of objects, all bearing similarities, but all having stylistic differences one from the other. The form of some of these objects can still be recognised in current tools; the form of other of these objects seems to be unique to the object.

Hindu culture entered Jawa, and other parts of Maritime South East Asia through the courts. There was no migration of Hindu settlers. There was limited trade contact up until the end of the first millenium AD, and these traders would have sometimes had to stay in coastal regions waiting for the wind to change before they could begin a return journey. So, first contact was probably through traders, followed by Brahmins who probably arrived in the courts at the invitation of the rulers.

After about 1000AD there was increasing trade contact, not only with the Indian sub-continent, but also with China , the middle east, and other parts of South East Asia.

The object under discussion probably dates from the period prior to 1500, so, yes, it could be the result of influence from some outside culture, however, I submit that to determine this with any degree of certainty at this remove could prove to be almost impossible. Consider:- an archaic iron tool of unknown age, unknown use, from an unknown location ( yes, I know:- "East Jawa", but where in East Jawa? And it is now irretreviably removed from its precise point of discovery); no known association with a court culture.
This object could well be the production of a single smith for a single customer; it could be a type that was used in one small area; we do not have fifty or a hundred of these objects all of precisely the same design, we have one, which is from a class of similar objects.

As stated above, there was no close contact between settlers from the Indian Sub-Continent, and Jawa. Hindu culture entered Jawa through the courts. If this object is the product of influence from a culture outside Jawa, it is more likely to be through the medium of trade than through the medium of direct transference of design from one person to another.

However,whatever we may hypothesise in the case of this implement, it is pure speculation that cannot be supported with evidence or logical argument.

Quote:-

" I do see a very strong correlation with weapons displayed on 9th C and 10th C durga statues in java and their “cousins” in India in the same time. As mentioned before the Chackra among others is clearly visible. Is this maybe a sign that some of those weapons were indeed “migrated”, rather then developed locally?"

There can be no doubt that Indian weapon forms are to be found in Javanese carvings, both statuary and relief, however, bear in mind the subject matter of the carvings, and bear in mind the connection with court culture.

Early Javanese writings do not deal with the common people, only with the courts. Cultural focus is on the courts, so what we have are two separate, but related cultural entities. A reading of Theodore Pigeaud: "Java in the Fourteenth Century" could assist with an understanding of this.

Quote:-

" As you mentioned it would indeed be very useful to chop off small wood. If this would indeed be the main purpose and people still need to chop small wood, then why did it no longer exist in the last few centuries ?"

For the same reasons that many objects in many places throughout the world have disappeared with the passing of time.

In respect of the matter of development of the form of the modern keris.

Nothing in what I wrote in "Origin" was implied. I wrote precisely what I meant to say. The changes that took place in the fore runners of the modern keris were part of a process that occurred over a period of time. These changes took place as most changes do,gradually, and to accommodate changes in the environment. Those environmental changes included such things as societal changes and technological changes.

The question has been once again been raised as to the possibility of origin of the keris being somewhere other than Jawa.

For those who consider this to be a serious possibility I encourage them to undertake the research necessary to establish this.

Until a place of origin other than Jawa is established, I believe that we must accept the available evidence that the keris did originate in Jawa. Actually, I thought this had been accepted by serious students of the keris long before I ever wrote on the subject.

[werecow]

This blade shape has a remarkable resemblance to a Tutsi Umuhoro (attached). Convergent evolution?

[oariff]

Alan - would this be a similar one? Looks like a gardening / farming tool to me.

Cheers

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes, I think so.