I know my Pappenheims...

shayde78 · 21st March 2020, 04:24 PM

If it is missing 6-9 inches, how badly would that effect the point of balance? I ask because it currently balance just in front of the guard. Is that where it should be? As a former competitive fencer, it seems to handle very well for such a heavy weapon. To me, that suggests decent balance.
That said, perhaps these were originally more point-heavy and the shortening if the blade inadvertently made the balance more familiar to someone like me.
Another possibility is the weight lost to the hilt by not having the second plate guard would have counter-balanced the additional weight.

All in all, thank you to all those who have shared their thoughts so far. I will keep trying to get a clear picture of the other marks ontheon the ricasso.

Stay healthy, everyone!

ulfberth · 21st March 2020, 08:49 PM

Being a diamond shape blade and fairly wide for this type it will probably have improved the balance.
The balance should serve its function, in this case in full length if it was to use from horse back it should be just slightly top heavy. Pappenheimers with slender stabbing blades are not top heavy at all , some have wide blades made for slashing , these are mostly shorter and lean more forward in balance like a sabre, you should be able to feel its function . I found this to be the case in even the most rudimental munitions grade swords or rapiers and in some cases its just amazing how agile a big sword can feel.

shayde78 · 21st March 2020, 09:22 PM

Indeed. When made by and for those who knew how to wield them, even large sword could be quite agile.
I know Pappenheim rapiers are said to have originated in 1630, a strangely specific date. I'm sure they continued to be made beyond the end of the Thirty Year War, but is there any indication when this particular example was made? I feel like I saw somewhere that the rings below the plate guards indicate an earlier style, but I've no idea where I picked up the bit of info (I could have dreamt it!).

kronckew · 21st March 2020, 09:32 PM

Whatever shortened it (a break?) the owner loved it enough to remove the left side guard plate, the least important one for a right-hander, to help restore the balance. Cool.

ulfberth · 22nd March 2020, 10:33 AM

The guard plates are kept in place by a slit as you can see in the picture above pointed by the blue arrow.
A strong blow to the guard may deform it and the guard plate will fall out, this is why so many pappenheimer and walloons type's have missing or replaced plates. The blade is most vulnerable towards the tip where its the thinnest and more prone to be damaged or brake there. That is why intact length and completely original pappenheimers or all rapiers or swords for that matter are extremely rare , about 70 % is damaged and or restored . As for the date the first half of the 17th c , I can not date it by the smaller guard ring the pappenheimers can have many different small variations, however the type of blade used here reminds me of North Italy or South Germany.
kind regards
Ulfberth

21st March 2020, 04:24 PM	#1
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	If it is missing 6-9 inches, how badly would that effect the point of balance? I ask because it currently balance just in front of the guard. Is that where it should be? As a former competitive fencer, it seems to handle very well for such a heavy weapon. To me, that suggests decent balance. That said, perhaps these were originally more point-heavy and the shortening if the blade inadvertently made the balance more familiar to someone like me. Another possibility is the weight lost to the hilt by not having the second plate guard would have counter-balanced the additional weight. All in all, thank you to all those who have shared their thoughts so far. I will keep trying to get a clear picture of the other marks ontheon the ricasso. Stay healthy, everyone! Last edited by shayde78; 21st March 2020 at 05:02 PM.

21st March 2020, 08:49 PM	#2
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 412	Being a diamond shape blade and fairly wide for this type it will probably have improved the balance. The balance should serve its function, in this case in full length if it was to use from horse back it should be just slightly top heavy. Pappenheimers with slender stabbing blades are not top heavy at all , some have wide blades made for slashing , these are mostly shorter and lean more forward in balance like a sabre, you should be able to feel its function . I found this to be the case in even the most rudimental munitions grade swords or rapiers and in some cases its just amazing how agile a big sword can feel.

21st March 2020, 09:22 PM	#3
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	Indeed. When made by and for those who knew how to wield them, even large sword could be quite agile. I know Pappenheim rapiers are said to have originated in 1630, a strangely specific date. I'm sure they continued to be made beyond the end of the Thirty Year War, but is there any indication when this particular example was made? I feel like I saw somewhere that the rings below the plate guards indicate an earlier style, but I've no idea where I picked up the bit of info (I could have dreamt it!).

21st March 2020, 09:32 PM	#4
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	Whatever shortened it (a break?) the owner loved it enough to remove the left side guard plate, the least important one for a right-hander, to help restore the balance. Cool.

22nd March 2020, 10:33 AM	#5
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 412	The guard plates are kept in place by a slit as you can see in the picture above pointed by the blue arrow. A strong blow to the guard may deform it and the guard plate will fall out, this is why so many pappenheimer and walloons type's have missing or replaced plates. The blade is most vulnerable towards the tip where its the thinnest and more prone to be damaged or brake there. That is why intact length and completely original pappenheimers or all rapiers or swords for that matter are extremely rare , about 70 % is damaged and or restored . As for the date the first half of the 17th c , I can not date it by the smaller guard ring the pappenheimers can have many different small variations, however the type of blade used here reminds me of North Italy or South Germany. kind regards Ulfberth