Watering on a tulwar blade

Jeff D · 25th January 2005, 04:33 AM

Hi Jim,

Venetian? I was thinking more along these flourishes seen on 18th century Turkish kilics, as seen on a recent aquisition of mine below. Thank you for the references I will look into it more.

Jeff

Jens Nordlunde · 25th January 2005, 02:43 PM

Hi Jim,
When you cover a thread, you always cover the whole area, with references and all – thank you very much.

Then to the questions. The decoration on the yelman is made in the same gold colour as the writing.
Armed with a magnet and a magnifying glass, it is obvious to the onlooker, me, that the hilt is made of steel, cut in relief, hammered very finely to get a rough surface, covered in thick gold leaf, which have been hammered to the surface, in this cast the maker has used quite a lot of gold. There is no copper on the hilt. On the disc you can see where a thick piece of gold wire is missing. Have a look at the attached.

It is a nice blade you are showing Jeff, although I suppose it is longer.

tom hyle · 25th January 2005, 03:19 PM

Is that an applied spine, Jeff? Does it appear to be soldered or welded to the blade, or to be ground and chiselled from a thicked piece that was wrapped around the spine and welded? Can you tell? Nice. This has been a real good thread for photos. I think the yelman in Europe and the Yelman in Hind are both coming from Tartaric influence.

Jeff D · 25th January 2005, 04:27 PM

Hi Jens,

I will post the entire sword when I get it back from Philip, I don't want to distract from this great thread of yours.
Tom, it is definitely ground and chiseled, as mentioned I will post it this summer after it has been repolished.

Jeff

Jens Nordlunde · 25th January 2005, 08:49 PM

Thank you for your interest Jeff.
One more thing, which I have not mentioned before is, that the blade is sharp - very sharp. When cleaning it I have cut muself a few times, although I knew I had to be careful.

Battara · 25th January 2005, 11:19 PM

Sorry for getting in on this so late. Jens, one of the reasons I can see someone scratching an area more than "needed" is that as one hits metal, especially like gold or silver (or even brass) the metal expands horizontally. Precise lining of a border is nearly impossible for the old techniques (and even today) of inlay and koftgari. As it expands, you would want all of the precious metal to catch in as many grooves as possible and thus lessen the chance of comming out later. Also, these were done by hand and some impression is to be expected, so any metal that wondered slightly out of the original plan is covered by extra grooves just in case.

Jim McDougall · 26th January 2005, 04:31 AM

Brian and Jens, thank you for the kind notes!

Jeff, extremely nice blade features on the kilic you show. You are right, these Ottoman kilic typically have very profound fluorishes and accented features in the blade, which as previously noted often focus on the prominant yelman.
These examples typically date from 18th century onward, and it seems these more flamboyant decorative elements in the blade and weapon overall are characteristic of many ,if not most Central Asian edged weapons.

The Venetian, and actually also Brescian falchions/storta that I was considering are mostly of the 16th century, and Tom brings in a very valid point. Could these elaborately flourished blades have been inspired by Central Asian designs and styles that were found within the Ottoman sphere and certainly seen in the constant warfare between these cultural spheres? It would seem quite probably.

This brings this conundrum to an interesting position, was this particular flourish or flamboyant blade design the result of indirect and diffused influence from Central Asian forms via the weapons of Italian armourers and direct trade contact, or from weapons of Central Asia directly via the Mughal courts? Brian's suggestion that this may be a revival type form, especially created for wealthy and important individuals for presentation is also keenly placed.

As always, all points must be considered as further discussion continues.

Best regards,
Jim

25th January 2005, 04:33 AM	#1
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi Jim, Venetian? I was thinking more along these flourishes seen on 18th century Turkish kilics, as seen on a recent aquisition of mine below. Thank you for the references I will look into it more. Jeff Attached Images

25th January 2005, 02:43 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Jim, When you cover a thread, you always cover the whole area, with references and all – thank you very much. Then to the questions. The decoration on the yelman is made in the same gold colour as the writing. Armed with a magnet and a magnifying glass, it is obvious to the onlooker, me, that the hilt is made of steel, cut in relief, hammered very finely to get a rough surface, covered in thick gold leaf, which have been hammered to the surface, in this cast the maker has used quite a lot of gold. There is no copper on the hilt. On the disc you can see where a thick piece of gold wire is missing. Have a look at the attached. It is a nice blade you are showing Jeff, although I suppose it is longer. Attached Images

25th January 2005, 03:19 PM	#3
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Is that an applied spine, Jeff? Does it appear to be soldered or welded to the blade, or to be ground and chiselled from a thicked piece that was wrapped around the spine and welded? Can you tell? Nice. This has been a real good thread for photos. I think the yelman in Europe and the Yelman in Hind are both coming from Tartaric influence.

25th January 2005, 04:27 PM	#4
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi Jens, I will post the entire sword when I get it back from Philip, I don't want to distract from this great thread of yours. Tom, it is definitely ground and chiseled, as mentioned I will post it this summer after it has been repolished. Jeff

25th January 2005, 08:49 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Thank you for your interest Jeff. One more thing, which I have not mentioned before is, that the blade is sharp - very sharp. When cleaning it I have cut muself a few times, although I knew I had to be careful.

25th January 2005, 11:19 PM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,346	Sorry for getting in on this so late. Jens, one of the reasons I can see someone scratching an area more than "needed" is that as one hits metal, especially like gold or silver (or even brass) the metal expands horizontally. Precise lining of a border is nearly impossible for the old techniques (and even today) of inlay and koftgari. As it expands, you would want all of the precious metal to catch in as many grooves as possible and thus lessen the chance of comming out later. Also, these were done by hand and some impression is to be expected, so any metal that wondered slightly out of the original plan is covered by extra grooves just in case.

26th January 2005, 04:31 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	Brian and Jens, thank you for the kind notes! Jeff, extremely nice blade features on the kilic you show. You are right, these Ottoman kilic typically have very profound fluorishes and accented features in the blade, which as previously noted often focus on the prominant yelman. These examples typically date from 18th century onward, and it seems these more flamboyant decorative elements in the blade and weapon overall are characteristic of many ,if not most Central Asian edged weapons. The Venetian, and actually also Brescian falchions/storta that I was considering are mostly of the 16th century, and Tom brings in a very valid point. Could these elaborately flourished blades have been inspired by Central Asian designs and styles that were found within the Ottoman sphere and certainly seen in the constant warfare between these cultural spheres? It would seem quite probably. This brings this conundrum to an interesting position, was this particular flourish or flamboyant blade design the result of indirect and diffused influence from Central Asian forms via the weapons of Italian armourers and direct trade contact, or from weapons of Central Asia directly via the Mughal courts? Brian's suggestion that this may be a revival type form, especially created for wealthy and important individuals for presentation is also keenly placed. As always, all points must be considered as further discussion continues. Best regards, Jim